What Yakuza and Shenmue can learn form each other

[Suzaku]

FFS, please stop being difficult:

1. There is absolutely 0 proof of each and every word you said. People move on and/or move up in business and the same happened at Sega. Nobody left because, "they couldn't do what they wanted anymore." Those are the words of a conspiracy theorist.
2. Those numbers are for JAPAN; there's the rest of the friggin' world you need to take into account.

Come on man, really? That was your actual defense?

3. VF5 came out in 2006. It received constant updates to it and FS, until 2012.

And what are you talking about? Sonic Dash, Sonic Boom, all make a ton of money on mobile; Dash is played by over 15 million people daily, including transactions and all the crap. Mania sold over 1 million in 7 months across all platforms. Generations sold 2 million in 6 months, Colors 2.1 million in 4 months, the past 10 years, Sonic has still sold EXTREMELY well, not to mention that these are just the figures for physical sales and not digital (as we all know).

Said it above and will say it again, stop. Drop this argument and stop bashing people because of your own thoughts and NOT the truth.

I'm sorry if my posts are too difficult for you

1-no offense, but you must be pretty naive or obtuse to believe that the mass escape of Sega talents that became guess what, when Sammy arrived on board and continued until few years ago, is just a normal thing, especially when you know all the shifting and changes that happenes inside the company since 2003.


2-So first you try you try to make us believe that all Yakuza games are million seller, and when it backfires to you you claim that those were Japan only sales...
Of course these are Japan sales (it was pretty clear since I read the source directly, I could even be offended by your pathetic attempts to destroy my arguments), but unfortunately for you, the best selling chapter of Yakuza series in the west is Yakuza 6 that reached in the West around 100k copies.

So even in the best case scenario, Yakuza 1 would be 600k in Japan + 100k West, total 700k Worldwide, in truth Yakuza 1 probably sold around 50k in the west, Yakuza 2 even less and so on.
So we are still far from 1 million even taking worldwide sales.


3-VF5 FS is from 2010, 2012 is when it was released (in a lazy digital only port) on consoles.

I'm talking about latest Sonic games, and you give numbers for games released more than 10 years ago (hint: things were little different in 2009-2011)
Sonic Boom or Lost World bombed, Sonic Forces did ok especially since it was a budget game and Sega didn't even published the real numbers (that speak a lot), they give number only for Mania where they did lots of noise for just a 1 million, that is pretty low for Sonic series.

If you count mobile (we reached this point, worst than any Sega manager) you could count also 100 million of free download of Sonic Dash lol.

 

[Suzaku]

STOP PARROTING THIS BULLSHIT.

These are all constructions in your head and you have no idea of what is really going on.

Just stop.

I was right when I said that Yakuza fans can't deal with the truth, you all become so hysterical...
Ironic for a game series that teach how to be strong and respectful of others to have this kind of fanbase.

 

[Dg1995]

Same happened to Kojima, Konami was even worst there, hindering the development of MGS5 and even physically obstruct the movements of Kojima as a person inside the company.

Nah. Konami never ruined the development of MGS V.

It is just a myth that some disappointed players made to explain why their precious game director made such a disappointing game.

Kojima was the one that decided to make the story the way it turned out. It was Kojima that decided to cut episode 51 from the game and instead add 100 repetitive side quests to the game.
It was Kojima that didn't understand the concept of open world games and just decided to make MGS V one of the most repetitive open world games of all time.

It was Kojima that decided to spend lots of money on the disaster known as MGO 3 instead of spending that on the MGS V instead.(And since Kojima outsourced that project to Kojima Production LA is the main reason that it failed horribly. MGO 1 and MGO 2 were made by the Japan Kojima Production but he decided to hand over that project to an inexperienced team.)

 

[Dg1995]

this way the company will not grow either, or grow at snail pace. Right now they are just living day by day, always afraid of competition or taking any risk (something that is necessaty in this business), and with no long term plan aside fro msome vagua statements "we gotta do better in future".
In this business the ones who dare wins. Look at Capcom, they were in worst shape than Sega at some point, and in just few years they were able to release many AAA quality games of their beloved series and they were rewarded with amazing sales.

Meanwhile the best Sega could do with its classic series is to give SOR 4, Shenmue HD or Panzer Dragoon to amateur indie developers, like they could care less.

mmmmmmm. OP I think you have got it a little wrong.

SEGA published lots of risky games in these years. Games such as Alpha Protocol,Vanquish,Bayonetta, Alien Isolation and I think they are the ones that are publishing those Football Manager games.
I think they also bought the developers of Persona games. So SEGA is not just making Yakuza games. So in some ways they are risk taking.

Yeah, they have treated Shenmue badly(Sega could publish the next games as low/mid budget games which they didn't) but that's it.

 

[Suzaku]

mmmmmmm. OP I think you have got it a little wrong.

SEGA published lots of risky games in these years. Games such as Alpha Protocol,Vanquish,Bayonetta, Alien Isolation and I think they are the ones that are publishing those Football Manager games.
I think they also bought the developers of Persona games. So SEGA is not just making Yakuza games. So in some ways they are risk taking.

Yeah, they have treated Shenmue badly(Sega could publish the next games as low/mid budget games which they didn't) but that's it.

I don't think those are really risky games, Alien is one of the most popular movie franchise ever, Vanquish and Bayonetta were the games "from the makers of DMC and Resident Evil", Football Manager was always the most popular football managment game even when it had a different name before Sega bought the team, maybe Alpha Protocol could have been a little "risky", but even there Obsidian were a real respected team.
Also Atlus wasn't a risky purchase, on the contrary it was one of the wiser purchase they did.

But i was referring to their in-house videogaming output.
Just to name the latest example of their risk adverse attitude, to re-launch the million seller Monkey Ball series (that is already a cheap arcade game to develop), instead of making Monkey Ball 3, they choose to play safe and just remake Banana Blitz.
Even in the interviews they said that they are not sure about Monkey Ball 3...
And we are talking about a simple arcade puzzle game that sold million, no wonder Panzer Dragoon, Shenmue and co. have no future inside the company.
Uncle Scrooge would be proud of the current Sega...

 

[danielmann861]

STOP PARROTING THIS BULLSHIT.

These are all constructions in your head and you have no idea of what is really going on.

Just stop.

I was right when I said that Yakuza fans can't deal with the truth, you all become so hysterical...
Ironic for a game series that teach how to be strong and respectful of others to have this kind of fanbase.

Can we please try to keep this on track here and not launch into personal attacks or deviate into the age old "us against them" with Yakuza fans and vice versa?

This thread was created to ask what the two franchises can learn from one another. Not fling personal attacks among the fan bases.

It does no one any favors in either fanbase and makes us all look bad.

 

[Dg1995]

The thing that Shenmue can learn from it is to make sequels with repetitive assets but with improved gameplay and some new assets.(But only if Ys Net gets even less budget than Shenmue 3 for Shenmue 4.)

I think Only the first Yakuza game costed too much to make while the next ones were costed much less.

 

[Creward]

Not sure how the product placement works because if its indeed as that way, then shouldnt Ys Net have pursued product placement more then? Seems like a no brainer. Yet Coke, Timex, and whoever else were in the first 2 games, are not in Shenmue 3 at all.
Would have helped greatly for budget reasons.

For the Shenmue3 that would be hard to negotiate since they work kinda like an ad campaign you need to negotiate sales targets (as that is the number of people that will se the ads) and convince them that this product placement will not damage the brand image.

With the Yakuza series that is relatively easy to show, the previous entry was xxx thousand sales in that period of time and the target audience is male of 20s to 30s age, etc... And the brand image lets take a look at the rizap gym as an example. They created a sidequest that is introduced in the main campaign (unavoidable) and improves Kiryu stats. That is quite a powerful positive image to the Rizap gym.

Shenmue does not have any of that, unfortunately, it would be hard to negotiate with all the negative press the series get in the internet.

If you want a read on the subject there is this link: Gamasutra article.

The amounts per placement might not be thaaat high but is at least something. In Yakuza6 it would be probably around half a million. From the top of my head:

• The drinks on the Bantam bar would be around 3K dollars each. So thats sums about 30k.
• Rizap gym couls be around 150K to 200K being as showcased as it is.
• Dartslive had quite more presence than usual in this one so I would guess it could have ended around 50k to 75K
• Don quijote could be in the 50K to 100K parnership. Mentioned in several sidequests, forced to buy items there, etc...
• There are minor sony ads so those are 3k
• Real eatery places probably are around 15k to 20k due being optional, not told in quests but providing experience and healing.

I would not mind to have as much product placement as Yakuza in Shenmue4 if it is not intrusive and helps us getting the game.

 

[Budgiecat]

Shenmue 1+2 cost $45-70 million to develop and sales declined with the sequel. Yakuza sales continue to increase in the West. I assume Yakuza 6 cost much less than $45-70 million to develop. This is an inane comparison you're trying to make. I really don't think it's worth anyone's time to make Shenmue and Yakuza rivals.

Thing you're leaving out though is Yakuza series reuse a lot of their assets. get money from product placement, and SEGA is in a much better financial position (having merged with Sammy Studios in 2004 and also acquiring Atlus later) than they were when they were struggling with the Dreamcast.
Not to mention, the cost for designing Shenmue 1 & 2 derived from basically having to 'start from scratch' when the initial Sega Saturn version was scrapped, and they they had to move over to the Dreamcast.
As well as the fact that back then, computers had floppy discs and really REALLY small hard drives compared to now.
Add to the fact that many of the mechanics you see in Shenmue 1 & 2 had to be invented on the spot in order for them even to work. Actual coding inventions and breakthroughs mind you.
Yakuza series shares absolutely NONE of these burdens. And Yakuza 1 on PS2 still cost $20 million to make.
People like to often throw out the "Shenmue cost a lot!" yada yada line without using critical thinking or common sense.
Enough. So sick of this.
Both series are great.
Just saw yet another clueless nitwit on Twitter chiming on about 'why do we need Shenmue when the superior series Yakuza exists which is a much better spiritual successor?". Nevermind the fact he was completely wrong but..God....where did these Yakuza fans come from? WHY is it somehow impossible to enjoy both series? What the hell.

 

[Budgiecat]

For the Shenmue3 that would be hard to negotiate since they work kinda like an ad campaign you need to negotiate sales targets (as that is the number of people that will se the ads) and convince them that this product placement will not damage the brand image.

With the Yakuza series that is relatively easy to show, the previous entry was xxx thousand sales in that period of time and the target audience is male of 20s to 30s age, etc... And the brand image lets take a look at the rizap gym as an example. They created a sidequest that is introduced in the main campaign (unavoidable) and improves Kiryu stats. That is quite a powerful positive image to the Rizap gym.

Shenmue does not have any of that, unfortunately, it would be hard to negotiate with all the negative press the series get in the internet.

If you want a read on the subject there is this link: Gamasutra article.

The amounts per placement might not be thaaat high but is at least something. In Yakuza6 it would be probably around half a million. From the top of my head:

• The drinks on the Bantam bar would be around 3K dollars each. So thats sums about 30k.
• Rizap gym couls be around 150K to 200K being as showcased as it is.
• Dartslive had quite more presence than usual in this one so I would guess it could have ended around 50k to 75K
• Don quijote could be in the 50K to 100K parnership. Mentioned in several sidequests, forced to buy items there, etc...
• There are minor sony ads so those are 3k
• Real eatery places probably are around 15k to 20k due being optional, not told in quests but providing experience and healing.

I would not mind to have as much product placement as Yakuza in Shenmue4 if it is not intrusive and helps us getting the game.

You say that yet WHITE CASTLE agreed to be in Homefront when no product placement had ever been in any Call of Duty, Metal of Honor, Gears of War, or Battlefield game (much bigger and more historically well known FPS franchises).
I mean, it shouldnt have been hard to acquire product placement for Call of Duty seeing as how successful the IP has been, but one of the only games of it I played: Modern Warfare 2, I clearly remember a "Burger Town" in there that I always felt could easily have been Burger King, McDonalds, or White Castle. Clearly the former two probably wanted nothing to do with a violent FPS, but somehow White Castle had no problem with Homefront.

Homefront was even a new IP, unlike Shenmue, and so that deemed a bigger risk. Yet they did it.

I specifically pointed out Coca-Cola and Timex because both were previously in Shenmue games.
Theres probably other examples, but I dont recall at the moment.

I know there was Sunotory alcohol drink advertised in Virtua Fighter 5 fighting game in an ad in one of the street stages.

also, where are you coming up with those product placement fee numbers?

 

[Budgiecat]

Speaking of new minigames, in 7 we have only the mario kart, the sleeping cinema and the litter cart minigame, nothing really special compared to the past.
It's pretty clear that the lack of ideas invested every part of this production.

Plus Nagoshi is the one in Sega who decide what project is greenlighted and what is rejected, he is the main reason behing the ultra-conservative Sega line up of the past decade.
It's not only a problem about taking risks on expensive IPs (something that Shenmue isn't anymore since it's cheaper than any Yakuza while doing more advanced things), the problem is they don't want to take risks even with cheaper IPs.

I remember when Nagoshi made that Initial D: Perfect Shift Online game for the Nintendo 3DS, but it turned out to be more like a F2P type mobile gacha game rather than a real racing game.

This the same guy that gave us Daytona USA, Scud Race and F-Zero GX when he was under Yu Suzuki..
Not sure why SEGA keeps the Initial D series on lockdown in Japanese arcade series. Bandai Namco does the same thing with Wangan Midnight arcade series.
I think they're up to their 8th or 9th (Zero) version? I believe the last ported one was on the PS3 which was like the 3rd or 4th.
Thinking about that: Japanese racing games outside those two series, are pretty much dead aside from Gran Turismo and the more whimsical Mario Kart and Sonic Racing series.
Shame that..

 

[Suzaku]

I remember when Nagoshi made that Initial D: Perfect Shift Online game for the Nintendo 3DS, but it turned out to be more like a F2P type mobile gacha game rather than a real racing game.

This the same guy that gave us Daytona USA, Scud Race and F-Zero GX when he was under Yu Suzuki..
Not sure why SEGA keeps the Initial D series on lockdown in Japanese arcade series. Bandai Namco does the same thing with Wangan Midnight arcade series.
I think they're up to their 8th or 9th (Zero) version? I believe the last ported one was on the PS3 which was like the 3rd or 4th.
Thinking about that: Japanese racing games outside those two series, are pretty much dead aside from Gran Turismo and the more whimsical Mario Kart and Sonic Racing series.
Shame that..

And arcade games are very cheap to develop.
Unfortunately companies decided that japanese arcade racing doesn't work anymore, and the genre is basically dead.
Luckly Sega together with Initial D made recently SWDC (Sega World Driver Championship) for the arcades, that from the video seems a real Sega arcade racing, sort of a successor of Sega Touring Car.

So in this case we already have the games, it will just need simple console ports, so costs would be ridicously low, still they don't take even the minimum risk...

 

[Suzaku]

I remembered another two things that Yakuza can learn from Shenmue:

-Worldwide release + multilanguage support

These two things are also two great feat achieved in Shenmue 3 by YSnet and Deep Silver with that pretty low budget.

While Judgment finally got the multilanguage support (that was missing since Yakuza 1 from 2005) and with some luck even Yakuza 7 will have this (but it's still not confirmed), they still can't do a simultaneous worldwide release.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

on the other hand the localization in Yakuza games is about as high quality as it gets.

 

[Suzaku]

on the other hand the localization in Yakuza games is about as high quality as it gets.

probably one of the best in the industry without exaggerating.

 

[Budgiecat]

I remembered another two things that Yakuza can learn from Shenmue:

-Worldwide release + multilanguage support

These two things are also two great feat achieved in Shenmue 3 by YSnet and Deep Silver with that pretty low budget.

While Judgment finally got the multilanguage support (that was missing since Yakuza 1 from 2005) and with some luck even Yakuza 7 will have this (but it's still not confirmed), they still can't do a simultaneous worldwide release.

also Fist of the North Star Lost Paradise had both JPN and English voice audio and Binary Domain had English dub of course

 

[Budgiecat]

And arcade games are very cheap to develop.

Software wise maybe. Debatable. Hardware wise definitely not.

Unfortunately companies decided that japanese arcade racing doesn't work anymore, and the genre is basically dead.
Luckly Sega together with Initial D made recently SWDC (Sega World Driver Championship) for the arcades, that from the video seems a real Sega arcade racing, sort of a successor of Sega Touring Car.

So in this case we already have the games, it will just need simple console ports, so costs would be ridiculously low, still they don't take even the minimum risk...

Well Sega did back in the day with Initial D Special Stage for PS2 and PSP which were ports of Im not sure which ones maybe Arcade Stage 3?
And I think Extreme Stage on PS3 was a port of 2007's Initial D Arcade Stage 4 maybe.
But that was 2008. So yeah Sega has kinda gone lax on porting.
Still, we're finally getting from Bamco, Gundam Extreme VS Maxi Boost ON globally for PS4 even though its a 2014 game ugh...

 

[Budgiecat]

Also Yakuza 6 selling 1 million copies isn't amazing. I think that is why they decided to change the combat.

for the series it is. Especially this late into it when prior the sales were declining.

Shenmue 1 on a dead console managed to sell more than the latest Yakuza game on 2 popular platforms.(PS4 and PC)

The Dreamcast alone despite it dying (totally not its fault though thats more on SEGA at the time not functioning properly as a well oiled running company and the failures of the Saturn were bleeding into the DC not to mention the PS2 which absolutely destroyed anything it its launch path being the cheapest DVD player on the market as well as having some key exclusives and a lot of hype behind it), had an excellent hyped launch and Shenmue was greatly talked about and anticipated; it didnt have the worry of 'series fatigue' behind it like some felt Yakuza 6 would have before it launched.

 

[Budgiecat]

Anything that, "died," died BEFORE the Dreamcast even came out and even then,

true for the most part.

That said, there really werent that much memorable Sega IP's created anyway after the death of the DC and the merge of Sammy and SEGA.
Pretty much Yakuza and Hatsune Miku off the top of my head.
Total War Shogun doesnt count and neither do the Alien games or Alpha Protocol.

SoR is the only series off the top of my head that, "died;" literally all of the golden-age series got releases, post-Dreamcast. ALL OF THEM.

Well Streets of Rage 4 is coming so...


Dead SEGA series:

Dragon Force
Spikeout/Slashout/Spiker's Battle (really wanted a rerelease of these. No the Xbox Dimps game dont count)
D series
Alex Kidd (no new ones but it did get a port to PS3 afaik
always got a kick out this vid

but yeah a lot of one game IP's died and never got rerelease
Burning Rangers for example
Shining the Holy Ark
Magic Knight Rayearth
Enemy Zero
Last Bronx


I know when DC died, SEGA wanted to strike a deal with MS for the upcoming Xbox and have it actually play Dreamcast games but MS said no and instead, has like 12 or so SEGA titles, mostly previous DC ones, be exclusive Xbox early releases.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

D series
Magic Knight Rayearth
Enemy Zero

None of those are Sega games, let alone IPs:

- D is WARP (and Kenji Eno is dead, that's why no new games have come out).
- MKR is CLAMP's IP, hence why there are more MKR games for NON-Sega consoles than there are for Sega consoles.
- EZ is WARP as well.