What Yakuza and Shenmue can learn form each other

Suzaku said:
Bingo,
The best selling Yakuza games (on a 100million base consoles) barely managed to reach Shenmue 1 sales (on a 10million base console).

Still Yu Suzuki was treated like trash by Sega and forced to retire, while Nagoshi was given free reign on the company, of course promoting only his games, while other Sega teams suffered, many IP died etc., even Sonic became a budget mediocre series.

Now I would understand if Yakuza was the Sega's Resident Evil, but that's not the case sales-wise.

In any case I hope they don't think to replicate the success of Persona 5 with Yakuza 7 by just going turn-based, it will be a harsh awakening...
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Shenmue 1+2 cost $45-70 million to develop and sales declined with the sequel. Yakuza sales continue to increase in the West. I assume Yakuza 6 cost much less than $45-70 million to develop. This is an inane comparison you're trying to make. I really don't think it's worth anyone's time to make Shenmue and Yakuza rivals.
 
Same people claiming that 1 million is a failure, same people claiming that no hard data but with an updates and DLc is a success

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Truck_1_0_1_ said:
?????

I AGREED with you that 6 was an evolution for the series and that's why it did so well.

Why are you taking shots at people?

EDIT* Oh, I see; you're one of those Sega bashers who doesn't know the whole story and goes off of bullshit articles and crap posted by, "gaming media."

Get some facts straight:

- Suzuki did NOT retire and was still actively developing and producing, after the 'mues came out (Shenmue Online, Shenmue Gai, Psy-Phi, etc.).
- Nagoshi wasn't given free reign of anything; Sonic Team still puts out crap that sells, but Nagoshi had to fight to get the first Yakuza and Binary Domain out.
- IPs didn't die after Shenmue, WTF did that come from? Anything that, "died," died BEFORE the Dreamcast even came out and even then, SoR is the only series off the top of my head that, "died;" literally all of the golden-age series got releases, post-Dreamcast. ALL OF THEM.

Don't let your opinions cloud your judgment or spin your brain off in a completely random direction that has no basis.
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-After Outrun 2, Sega gave the middle finger to Yu Suzuki basically cancelling every time any new project he was making for one reason or another.
After that he was put on a symbolic administrative roles basically doing nothing, and forcing him to leave since they were also clear about Shenmue future.

-That's true for the first Yakuza, but after that Sega forced the success of Yakuza, the first wasn't a huge hit in Japan, still they decide to invest on it making an annual series.
In the end it never reached the status of a million seller series, still it's the Sega series with the most sequels apart Sonic, strange uh?

-??? Do you realize that since Yakuza became the flagship title of Sega Japan, almost all other series disappeared?
What happened to Virtua Fighter for example? That was a multi-million seller...
Why Sonic from a multi-million series became a budget mediocre series that barely surpass the 500k now?
 
mjqjazzbar said:
Shenmue 1+2 cost $45-70 million to develop and sales declined with the sequel. Yakuza sales continue to increase in the West. I assume Yakuza 6 cost much less than $45-70 million to develop. This is an inane comparison you're trying to make. I really don't think it's worth anyone's time to make Shenmue and Yakuza rivals.
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Old Yakuza games cost around $20 million, that is the range
Shenmue 3 was $6million, maybe $10m with partners.

It's not strange comparison if you're not biased one way or another, also we're talking about the number of copies, that means the real success of the game, not if it was a profit for the company.

-Shenmue surpassed 1 million mark on a 10 million console.

-Yakuza barely reached the 1 million mark with Yakuza 5 and 6, thanks to re-releases and budget release too, but on a 100 million consoles.

Also we don't know how the sales went for the west after Yakuza 6 (that is the best selling game in the west, with around 100k), since we have no real data, but it's clear that Judgment and Kiwami 2 sold less than Yakuza 6 in the west jusging from the Top 20 data...
Also the Yakuza series is in decline in Japan at least since Yakuza 0 release, the series make the money in Asia nowadays, and some bucks in the west.

So much success for the Sega's flagship series.
 
- No they didn't. Again, there has been 0 proof or even knowledge that that happened. Guess Naka left to from Prope because of the same thing? The company evolved and the old guys all moved on... ALL of them moved on, outside of Mie Kumagai, Nagoshi and few others. Kojima left Konami, Miyamoto has produced 2 games since 2010, etc. They all get kicked upstairs/move on once they hit a certain age and the old guard of executives has to move on. That's how business works FFS.

- I already showed (with numbers) that the first WAS a success in Japan and 2 is the best-selling title in the series, in Japan.
The game sold 232,650 units in Japan during 2005.[61] In 2006 it shipped 345,323 units.[62] Due to its commercial success on the Japanese market, Yakuza had a PlayStation 2 the Best edition on October 26, 2006, and an exceptional reprint on December 6, 2007. In contrast, this Asian long seller title never had a Platinum or Greatest Hits re-release on the western markets. Total sales reached 1 million.[63]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza_(video_game)#cite_note-64. 1 sold over 1 million, 2 sold over 1 million, 3 sold either 1 million or 950,000 or whatever. 5 was like 3, 6 sold over 1 million, 0 sold over 1 million, why are you contradicting factual numbers? It only had a lull for 4, 5 and Dead Souls.

- Virtua Fighter 5 was getting updates and re-releases for 6 years after it came out. The AM2 team then largely dissolved after that, hence why there are no new titles. Sonic sells super-well still to this day and is a cash cow on mobile.

Any other series you have aside from VF, which you've already been contradicted on with facts?
 
Why are we even comparing the year 99-00 with 2012+?
Completely different times, completely different values, communities etc
Also the Dreamcast had 620 games, some of them are Japan / EU / NA exclusive.
The release time frame was completely different with a much smaller selection worldwide.
The PS4 alone has over 2400 games, Steam gets about 7-10 new games a day.
Not to mention that the presentation and game formular 20 years ago was something completely different and brand new.
Also the japanese console market in general is weaker now, thats not the fault of Sega or Ryu Ga Gotoku Studio.

Apples and oranges ...
 
Was Yakuza 6 an evolution or success? Aside of engine change it is mostly the same template with gameplay downgrades due the limitations of dev time and new engine.
  • Less heat actions.
  • Less equipment (weapons)
  • The main minigame was heavily critices the gang wars
  • Plot resolution was even sillier than usual.
  • I remember a lot of criticism about the Haruka "changed personalities"
And yeah selling 1M for such a niche game is great. It is a quite japanese game and I am 100% sure they scope the project around the usual 200k sales in the japanese market and treat whatever happens in the west as a bonus.

Also lets take into accoun that the Yakuza series has product placement that helps funding the game and make it more profitable. All the booze, suntory groups, don quijotes, etc.. Shenmue does not do that kind of marketing making it a higher risk product for Sega.
 
It's sad watching people knock down Yakuza to make some kind of argument in favor of Shenmue. Stop worrying about Yakuza. It has no effect on or relevance to Shenmue. People who like Yakuza and don't like Shenmue aren't going to see the light if Sega gets involved in Shenmue again. This is just as bad as when people feel so threatened by Shenmue that they need to harp on and on about how superior Yakuza is.
 
Suzaku said:
Making the battle system turn-based in Yakuza 7 is a design choice, they also said that if it's not received well, they return to the normal battle system, otherwise they'll continue to expand the turn based one (seems more a threat to me lol).

Now while I love turn based rpg, this battle system feels out of place in Yakuza 7, and conttibute to create the feeling that Yakuza 7 is just an oldish parody game, not if sure that was their main goal...

In any case I feel this strange choice is just a sign of "no more ideas" that the series is suffering with the latest games.
Of course after the amazing Yakuza 6 there isn't much you can do, apart evolving the series and making it more similar and deep like Shenmue.

Unfortunately they choose the lazy way to shuffle the cards using always the good old stuff and just changing the battle system.
The problem is Yakuza 7 doesn't feel new at all just because of the battle system and some new uninteresting characters, on the contrary is feels even more stiff now since there is no action, and the rest of the game is the same old Yakuza game.

Few days ago I booted up Shenmue 3 after a few weeks pause, and it gave me a sense of "liberation", especially compared to the latest Yakuza 7 and Judgment..

Now I understand why there is all the hate, Shenmue is very dangerous series because it makes pretty clear how much inferior are all the other open world games, and the fact that it can do this even as a kickstarter game, make it even more clear about what game has the best open world formula.

Too bad the world is trying to destroy again Shenmue, while they want more and more "PS2 stiffness" like Yakuza.
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I mean the fact it was revealed originally as an April Fool's joke should tell you something.


But yeah...I get the impression the team's kinda burnt out on making the same type of game for 15 years aside from Binary Domain, but that SEGA wanted them to continue on, and this is a way for them to flex their creative muscles, but, if it were labeled anything else other than "Yakuza 7", that would maybe not have illicitv as big a response from consumers and journos reveal wise and marketing wise, so SEGA probably said label it as a main game.
But yeah, it definitely feels more like a spin-off to me.
Kiryu's story is complete anyway so in all honestly, Yakuza finished at 6. This is just a label name for market and business purposes.
Especially when even Judgement feels more like Yakuza than this.
But yeah; its a spin-off but with a main name title and a brand new character that has nothing to do with the preexisting story of the series.
odd.
 
Creward said:
Also lets take into accoun that the Yakuza series has product placement that helps funding the game and make it more profitable. All the booze, suntory groups, don quijotes, etc.. Shenmue does not do that kind of marketing making it a higher risk product for Sega.
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Not sure how the product placement works because if its indeed as that way, then shouldnt Ys Net have pursued product placement more then? Seems like a no brainer. Yet Coke, Timex, and whoever else were in the first 2 games, are not in Shenmue 3 at all.
Would have helped greatly for budget reasons.
 
Truck_1_0_1_ said:
- No they didn't. Again, there has been 0 proof or even knowledge that that happened. Guess Naka left to from Prope because of the same thing? The company evolved and the old guys all moved on... ALL of them moved on, outside of Mie Kumagai, Nagoshi and few others. Kojima left Konami, Miyamoto has produced 2 games since 2010, etc. They all get kicked upstairs/move on once they hit a certain age and the old guard of executives has to move on. That's how business works FFS.

- I already showed (with numbers) that the first WAS a success in Japan and 2 is the best-selling title in the series, in Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza_(video_game)#cite_note-64. 1 sold over 1 million, 2 sold over 1 million, 3 sold either 1 million or 950,000 or whatever. 5 was like 3, 6 sold over 1 million, 0 sold over 1 million, why are you contradicting factual numbers? It only had a lull for 4, 5 and Dead Souls.

- Virtua Fighter 5 was getting updates and re-releases for 6 years after it came out. The AM2 team then largely dissolved after that, hence why there are no new titles. Sonic sells super-well still to this day and is a cash cow on mobile.

Any other series you have aside from VF, which you've already been contradicted on with facts?
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-All Sega people that decide to left the company, were forced because they weren't free anymore to do the things they wanted.
While what you said appplied for Naka and a few other ones (like Hisao Oguchi who accepted the new administrative roles), that wasn't the case for others.
People like Mizuguchi, Nagagawa, Ohba, Ueda etc. all left because they couldn't do anymore what they did previously.
In the case of Yu Suzuki, all his projects in later years were cancelled and he wasn't able to continue Shenmue series inside Sega. He was put in an administrative role that resulted in reality in just a fake position since he wasn't able to do much, unlike Nagoshi that had the same position at the time already had free reign for some reason (i have my theories on this).
That forced Yu to leave Sega, if you don't know how big companies works, this is a common practice whan they want someone out, make one in an unconfortable position so he will leave on his own.

Same happened to Kojima, Konami was even worst there, hindering the development of MGS5 and even physically obstruct the movements of Kojima as a person inside the company.



-You and wiki did confusion with numbers, I followed your links and the real number are:

2005

-Yakuza 1 - 232.650

2006

-Yakuza 1 - 345.323 (the count start from 2005)
-Yakuza 1 the best 275.340

The real total for Yakuza 1 is 620.663, counting 2 releases!
Also there are no evidence in the sources about the 1 million claim, and it's not the case unless you count both Yakuza 1 AND Yakuza 2.
So no, Yakuza series only reached the 1 million mark on just few occasion, and always thanks to multiple reprints.



-Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown is from 2010, it's 10 years now.
Sonic games sells bad, they used to sell from 3 to 5 million at any release, now they are well under the 1 million mark as average.
Ever wondered why Sega make all that noise with Sonic Mania that barely reached a mediocre 1 million mark?
 
Budgiecat said:
I mean the fact it was revealed originally as an April Fool's joke should tell you something.


But yeah...I get the impression the team's kinda burnt out on making the same type of game for 15 years aside from Binary Domain, but that SEGA wanted them to continue on, and this is a way for them to flex their creative muscles, but, if it were labeled anything else other than "Yakuza 7", that would maybe not have illicitv as big a response from consumers and journos reveal wise and marketing wise, so SEGA probably said label it as a main game.
But yeah, it definitely feels more like a spin-off to me.
Kiryu's story is complete anyway so in all honestly, Yakuza finished at 6. This is just a label name for market and business purposes.
Especially when even Judgement feels more like Yakuza than this.
But yeah; its a spin-off but with a main name title and a brand new character that has nothing to do with the preexisting story of the series.
odd.
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you're right.

I don't know, they just have their own (strange) vision of things.
For example they claimed that they were working on a brand new IP that did new things...and resulted in Judgment, another yakuza spin off, always with the same recycled city, just with a different character and some dialogue choices.
That's their idea of a brand new IP.

Or we have Yakuza 7 as their idea of evolution of the series: making the game 80% similar to the past and just changing the battle system into something that would be more appropriate in other Sega RPG (that meanwhile became action games for some reason).
And all this probably just to try ro repeat the success of Persona 5.


What is sad is that Nagoshi has the resources but has no ideas anymore.

While Yu Suzuki has lots of ideas (the latest DLC Battle Rally is just brilliant) but has no resources.
 
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Lol how does Nagoshi have no ideas? Every Yakuza is packed with new mini games. He is working for a company that is not going to take risks on expensive new IPs. That would likely be Suzuki’s fate if he were still at Sega.
 
Speaking of new minigames, in 7 we have only the mario kart, the sleeping cinema and the litter cart minigame, nothing really special compared to the past.
It's pretty clear that the lack of ideas invested every part of this production.

Plus Nagoshi is the one in Sega who decide what project is greenlighted and what is rejected, he is the main reason behing the ultra-conservative Sega line up of the past decade.
It's not only a problem about taking risks on expensive IPs (something that Shenmue isn't anymore since it's cheaper than any Yakuza while doing more advanced things), the problem is they don't want to take risks even with cheaper IPs.
 
Which is why he is still with Sega. They aren’t the company they used to because that company lost money left and right.
 
Suzaku said:
-All Sega people that decide to left the company, were forced because they weren't free anymore to do the things they wanted.
While what you said appplied for Naka and a few other ones (like Hisao Oguchi who accepted the new administrative roles), that wasn't the case for others.
People like Mizuguchi, Nagagawa, Ohba, Ueda etc. all left because they couldn't do anymore what they did previously.
In the case of Yu Suzuki, all his projects in later years were cancelled and he wasn't able to continue Shenmue series inside Sega. He was put in an administrative role that resulted in reality in just a fake position since he wasn't able to do much, unlike Nagoshi that had the same position at the time already had free reign for some reason (i have my theories on this).
That forced Yu to leave Sega, if you don't know how big companies works, this is a common practice whan they want someone out, make one in an unconfortable position so he will leave on his own.

Same happened to Kojima, Konami was even worst there, hindering the development of MGS5 and even physically obstruct the movements of Kojima as a person inside the company.



-You and wiki did confusion with numbers, I followed your links and the real number are:

2005

-Yakuza 1 - 232.650

2006

-Yakuza 1 - 345.323 (the count start from 2005)
-Yakuza 1 the best 275.340

The real total for Yakuza 1 is 620.663, counting 2 releases!
Also there are no evidence in the sources about the 1 million claim, and it's not the case unless you count both Yakuza 1 AND Yakuza 2.
So no, Yakuza series only reached the 1 million mark on just few occasion, and always thanks to multiple reprints.



-Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown is from 2010, it's 10 years now.
Sonic games sells bad, they used to sell from 3 to 5 million at any release, now they are well under the 1 million mark as average.
Ever wondered why Sega make all that noise with Sonic Mania that barely reached a mediocre 1 million mark?
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FFS, please stop being difficult:

1. There is absolutely 0 proof of each and every word you said. People move on and/or move up in business and the same happened at Sega. Nobody left because, "they couldn't do what they wanted anymore." Those are the words of a conspiracy theorist.
2. Those numbers are for JAPAN; there's the rest of the friggin' world you need to take into account.

Come on man, really? That was your actual defense?

3. VF5 came out in 2006. It received constant updates to it and FS, until 2012.

And what are you talking about? Sonic Dash, Sonic Boom, all make a ton of money on mobile; Dash is played by over 15 million people daily, including transactions and all the crap. Mania sold over 1 million in 7 months across all platforms. Generations sold 2 million in 6 months, Colors 2.1 million in 4 months, the past 10 years, Sonic has still sold EXTREMELY well, not to mention that these are just the figures for physical sales and not digital (as we all know).

Said it above and will say it again, stop. Drop this argument and stop bashing people because of your own thoughts and NOT the truth.
 
this way the company will not grow either, or grow at snail pace. Right now they are just living day by day, always afraid of competition or taking any risk (something that is necessaty in this business), and with no long term plan aside fro msome vagua statements "we gotta do better in future".
In this business the ones who dare wins. Look at Capcom, they were in worst shape than Sega at some point, and in just few years they were able to release many AAA quality games of their beloved series and they were rewarded with amazing sales.

Meanwhile the best Sega could do with its classic series is to give SOR 4, Shenmue HD or Panzer Dragoon to amateur indie developers, like they could care less.
 
Suzaku said:
this way the company will not grow either, or grow at snail pace. Right now they are just living day by day, always afraid of competition or taking any risk (something that is necessaty in this business), and with no long term plan aside fro msome vagua statements "we gotta do better in future"
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STOP PARROTING THIS BULLSHIT.

These are all constructions in your head and you have no idea of what is really going on.

Just stop.
 
Budgiecat said:
Not sure how the product placement works because if its indeed as that way, then shouldnt Ys Net have pursued product placement more then? Seems like a no brainer. Yet Coke, Timex, and whoever else were in the first 2 games, are not in Shenmue 3 at all.
Would have helped greatly for budget reasons.
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I don't think product placements are healthy for games.

Shenmue 1 and 2 took a lot of effort from getting rereleased because those games product placements were expired.
www.eurogamer.net

Sega explains why Shenmue remakes haven't happened yet

Sega has said it is "looking into" remasters of the first two Shenmue games.Despite interest from both fans and Sega it…
www.eurogamer.net www.eurogamer.net

I think product placements are also a main reason on why Konami isn't making a remaster of MGS games these days since all MGS games were filled with product placements, celebrity pictures, real life weapons and those real life footage that MGS used in some cutscenes.
 
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