General RGG Discussion

Tosh said:
- the Ishin Remake is gonna have a new theme song,
also the ingame music will be changed to have more songs from other games to get the Allstar feeling

- sadly RGG Studio knows of all the overseas meme potential
- Oryo from original Ishin is now played by Yuki from Kiwami 2
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To the first: THANK GOD!

One Ok Rock (Clock Strikes is the song) was a good theme and fit the game, but that was very much a song of the time... but the final song, OH GOD WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!?!?!?!?!? Just made absolutely no sense in the context of the game, the setting, nothing (basically, they had a black gospel group sing a slow, R&B-like song). Just ridiculous.

To the second point, thank you RGG Studios for still being on the sane side of things.

To the third point, STOP CHANGING SHIT THAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE CHANGED, JUST TO PLACATE THE CASUALS!

I had this same discussion at work about the Who (my favourite musical group ever), in how during their last tour (which should've been their absolute last), they made Baba O'Riley the closing song, just to placate the casual fans that became fans of the group in the prior 5 years.

IT'S BEEN THEIR OPENER SINCE 1971, WTF ARE YOU PUTTING AN OPENING SONG AS THE CLOSING SONG!? There's a reason why they always opened with it and it's because it is the quintessential song to begin a concert/setlist. It doesn't fit in tone or feeling, as the final song of a big concert. Their current tour is ongoing and I missed the Sunday show because I couldn't afford to go. After looking at the setlist, it is unchanged from the last tour, so I missed nothing, thankfully.

I'm all for evolution and improving things, but simply using characters that people only like because of 1 game or memes or whatever, is just bullshit: no need to change a tried and true formula just to placate people.
 
Tosh said:
- almost 70% of the Yakuza / Like A Dragon fanbase is now from overseas,
thats why Sega gave thumbs up for a translated Ishin Remake

- the Ishin Remake has exactly the same story as the original
but they made some edits and cuts -> Yokoyama commented that they removed some things
that dont fit the times or are a bit questionable now
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Unfortunately these two things are related, and I'm not talking about the non-Japanese Asian fans...
 
Yeah i dont know man. I really dont know what to think of this.
The first thing that comes to my mind when some niche IP suddenly gets fame boosted beyond the horizon,
is that i dont want the developers to change anything.

I dont want to hear anything about the new fanbase or the new international audience
or how they are thinking about comparisons with this new market and so on.
I like games or movies for example from Japan or South Korea BECAUSE
they clearly arent made in Europe or the US and the target audience clearly isnt from Europe or the US.
I'm trying to enjoy content that wasnt made for me on purpose
because i'm bored with the content that was 'made for me'.

I dont want Sega of America or Sega of Europe to tell RGG Studio
what type of content they should go for or drop.
I dont want RGG Studio to acknowledge memes from overseas
and then them trying to put that stuff in the games on purpose.

100% core japanese or south korean studios acknowledging
and welcoming a truckload of new fans from overseas
and how the formerly 100% japanese / south korean IP is now a official international IP
is exactly what i dont want.

Okay, now i sound like some grumpy old man,
but do you know what i mean?
I'm primarily interested in asian games because it feels fresh
and i can learn things, discover new topics, get to know different kind of humor etc.
But this only works because the creators dont have me in mind at all while creating it.
And thats the good part!
I'm absolutely not interested in RGG Studio content that was only created
because they had to keep in mind that now 70% of their fanbase is from overseas ...

Its already enough when RGG Studio is hyping up a new game like the Ishin Remake
with a teaser trailer with snippets of well known american Twitch Streamers like CohhCarnage
and them commenting how awesome it is that we finally get Ishin.
I dont have anything against Cohh at all but this stuff is already drifting
into this international US plastic hype promotion category. Please stop it. Urgh.
 
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Your Boy Leroy said:
So I just ran into some bullshit in Judgement. During the last boss battle in chapter 6, the boss has goons that revive once youā€™ve put them all down. While not ideal, I always thought this was a better method of artificially making RGG boss battles more challenging than the bullshit they usually do. So instead of clearing out the goons, I just go after the boss since the goons will revive anyway. NOPE. Once youā€™ve cleared the first of multiple health bars the boss has, HE IS INVINCIBLE UNTIL YOU TAKE OUT THE REST OF HIS GOONSā€¦WHO WILL FUCKING REVIVE ONCE YOU TAKE THEM OUT ANYWAY.

Iā€™m surprised I donā€™t remember running into this in Judgement, or any other RGG game (but I could be wrongā€¦their games are full of TERRIBLE boss battles).

See, this is EXACTLY what Iā€™m talking about when RGG insists on adding a ton of (in my mind) useless bullshit diversions in every new game when there are still basic gameplay aspects important to the core game that they really fucking suck at.

ā€œInstead of evolving/smoothing out the combat or addressing issues weā€™ve had since our very first gameā€¦letā€™s put a fucking go-cart mini-game or half-assed RTS mini-game into our next entryā€¦AND add an infuriatingly boring and long substory to itā€¦AND include half-assed barely animated cut-scenes to it!ā€
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2 options:
1) Git gud. Watch some "no damage" videos. All bosses from all games of the series, including spin-offs, are available in various YouTube videos;
2) Play Batman or any of those western games with semi-automatic combat where you press 1 button for automatic counterattacks. Or games with "move assist". You don't even need to touch the analog.
 
You know that Japan is just one country and the whole world plays video games, right? I'm from Korea and I've been playing the series since PS2, all titles at launch.
 
Btw i really really dont understand this modern thought process
where people think that stuff like the Kenzan Haruka content
or Haunting Grounds premise or some random game / movie character is too problematic or offensive or something ...

Like, isnt that exactly the point that the writers of the content are trying to achieve,
to give you something unique, interesting, shocking, something to remember?
Why do we want to exclude uncomfortable content
just because the topic is considered a no go in normal real life?

Isnt that the cool thing about games and movies,
that the viewer / player is allowed to experience topics, themes, content
which are a no go in real life?
Why do we want to adjust fictional stories about horror, history or whatever
to modern standards / moral views?

Who said that every game or movie content should be enjoyable for every single human being
and why exactly should we want that?
I think the solution is very easy and i'm using this method myself.
I simply dont consume content that i have no interest in. Done.

Or whenever there is something in a game or movie that raises my eyebrow,
i'm keeping in mind that the creators are trying to achieve something specific with that.
So maybe they want to be disgusting or its some kind of humor that i dont understand
or whatever. And then i can accept that this part wasnt for me and move on.

Maybe it was a unfunny offensive joke. So what? I cant even handle some random stupid joke
from some random writer?
Or when they adjust content nowadays because the content was fine in 2005 or 1990 or whatever
but its questionable now ... like cant we use our brains to keep that in mind
and just leave the content as it was? Just insert a screen with text
that reminds the viewer that this content wasnt made by modern standards?

Like the torture stuff in GTA 5, i'm not a fan of that. I dont want to play that.
But does that mean that i would love to remove this content for everyone? No. Why should i?
I can simply accept that its not for me and thats it.
Maybe that feeling was exactly what the team was going for to make me feel uncomfortable.
So good job.

... yeah, i really dont understand how we want to shy away from "problematic" content
in games and movies nowadays and how there shouldnt be any offensive content at all.
I can use my own brain to decide what i find interesting or not, thanks.

"Sorry, we cant show Haruka in this fictional non explicit history setting of 1605 Japan
because it collides with modern standards and moral views." ...
that doesnt make any sense if you ask me.
 
Tosh said:
Btw i really really dont understand this modern thought process
where people think that stuff like the Kenzan Haruka content
or Haunting Grounds premise or some random game / movie character is too problematic or offensive or something ...

Like, isnt that exactly the point that the writers of the content are trying to achieve,
to give you something unique, interesting, shocking, something to remember?
Why do we want to exclude uncomfortable content
just because the topic is considered a no go in normal real life?

Isnt that the cool thing about games and movies,
that the viewer / player is allowed to experience topics, themes, content
which are a no go in real life?
Why do we want to adjust fictional stories about horror, history or whatever
to modern standards / moral views?

Who said that every game or movie content should be enjoyable for every single human being
and why exactly should we want that?
I think the solution is very easy and i'm using this method myself.
I simply dont consume content that i have no interest in. Done.

Or whenever there is something in a game or movie that raises my eyebrow,
i'm keeping in mind that the creators are trying to achieve something specific with that.
So maybe they want to be disgusting or its some kind of humor that i dont understand
or whatever. And then i can accept that this part wasnt for me and move on.

Maybe it was a unfunny offensive joke. So what? I cant even handle some random stupid joke
from some random writer?
Or when they adjust content nowadays because the content was fine in 2005 or 1990 or whatever
but its questionable now ... like cant we use our brains to keep that in mind
and just leave the content as it was? Just insert a screen with text
that reminds the viewer that this content wasnt made by modern standards?

Like the torture stuff in GTA 5, i'm not a fan of that. I dont want to play that.
But does that mean that i would love to remove this content for everyone? No. Why should i?
I can simply accept that its not for me and thats it.
Maybe that feeling was exactly what the team was going for to make me feel uncomfortable.
So good job.

... yeah, i really dont understand how we want to shy away from "problematic" content
in games and movies nowadays and how there shouldnt be any offensive content at all.
I can use my own brain to decide what i find interesting or not, thanks.

"Sorry, we cant show Haruka in this fictional non explicit history setting of 1605 Japan
because it collides with modern standards and moral views." ...
that doesnt make any sense if you ask me.
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I totally agree, in fact I don't buy any "self-censored" movies or games.
 
Ichiban said:
2 options:
1) Git gud. Watch some "no damage" videos. All bosses from all games of the series, including spin-offs, are available in various YouTube videos;
2) Play Batman or any of those western games with semi-automatic combat where you press 1 button for automatic counterattacks. Or games with "move assist". You don't even need to touch the analog.
Click to expand...
1. Guess you didnā€™t read my next comment saying that I didnā€™t find the battle particularly difficult, just appalled by how obviously cheap it was. Hence my overuse of the word ā€œbullshitā€ in my post you quoted.

2. Donā€™t be a dick.
 
Well, RGG has been self-censoring for the Japanese market as well. Case in point Pierre Taki and Hiroki Narimiya. Those are changes that probably wouldn't happen in Western studios.

They also took out a substory from the Remastered Collection (parts 3-5) that involved making fun of an LGBTQ person. You could argue it was done for the west, but this shows it's not exactly a recent development.

I'm actually pretty sure there are many more examples that are just less prominent and date back all the way to even the very first game.

All markets/countries have different standards of what's socially acceptable and, for better or worse, social media have become powerful tools to grab attention. This has made companies more aware of potential pitfalls and they will now more publically self-censor to gain positive feedback. Regardless of what they release in official statements, this isn't due to some sense of moral responsibility, but purely to protect their image.

But just because it has become more prominent in this day and age, doesn't mean it wasn't there before. Businesses always have and always will protect their image for self-preservation, so that they don't run out of business.

Pretty sure even most individual artists will self-censor their content to some extent. Anyone who ever created some form of expressive art can probably attest to maybe not going with an idea that they felt would not fly over well.

Anyone who thinks they don't own or aren't buying self-censored media, is either not buying anything or deluding themselves. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

With that said, I'm not a big fan of censorship either, but it all depends on proper context and whether or not the art suffers because of it.

Let's look at Yakuza 7, a game that was created with both Eastern and Western markets in mind. It ended up being one of the most popular games of the year and the franchise.

If you think there was no internal censorship during the creation of that game, you're being naive.
 
I think its totally understable that companies are doing it for modern new products now
because the pressure from social networks is so high
but i still think this whole system is stupid.

There are literally cases where game or movie companies
responded to random single tweets by random people who had like 3 thumbs up or whatever.
Basically changing some type of content for absolutely everyone
just because of this one request and probably a big part why they did it
was just being afraid that this could gain traction in a negative way.
Like they didnt even make a poll if more people feel this way
or ask if this is a personal problem or something,
no, lets just accept the request. Lets not risk anything at all.

Otherwise this person is going to send this tweet to IGN or whatever and
then it looks like we arent listening to our audience ...
Like what is this modern social network threat thing?

And there isnt even any proof that this specific person was going to buy or consume this product.
Its totally possible that this person simply complained about the content of some Youtube trailer ad
or whatever. So maybe this person is just happy that he was able to change this content
that he didnt like but hes still not going to buy it.
This whole social network "respond to my request otherwise you are my enemy"
pressure thing is stupid.

And of course i know that companies are having their own requests to "tame" the developers
and there always are some kind of restrictions
but the thing is now with all these social platforms where everyone can criticize anything
and share anything,
we basically have a whole second forced restriction check,
executed by random amateur people on social network who want to tell other people
that they have like a higher and better moral view rank and they should
request adjustments which affects everyone.
And in literally 99% of the time, this means removing some type of content
because of personal reasons.
If you ask me, it shouldnt work like that. Random users on the internet shouldnt have that power.

And then this whole modern procedure of changing, adjusting, editing old content
that was already released once, is a another thing on its own.
Like lets just use the Kenzan Haruka topic again.
If you look on the Ishin Remake cut content Reddit threads for example,
there are literally dozens of user comments who are talking about
Kenzans very "problematic content" and its good that we arent getting a remaster of that
and they would need to change all of this etc.

Why is that? Whats problematic?
Its a fictional story about historical Japan in 1605.
1. This is a made up story, the "problematic content" is not based on some specific real person (Haruka)
so this shouldnt hurt the pride of some descendant or whatever
2. Its Japan in 1605, maybe we can keep in mind that things were "a little" different
a couple of 100 hundred years ago, no? Why exactly should this historical setting
or any fictional setting / story be forced to represent standards and moral views of 2022?
That doesnt make any sense.
3. The "problematic content" is there for a reason, purposely put in there
to have something very unique in this made up story. Nobody said that you should enjoy this content.
Personal reasons shouldnt be an argument to request content removal.
4. The content is not explicit at all, this is not like some explicit voyeur snuff VHS tape,
this is a already officially rated game (17+ in Japan)

So to get back to my first thought process post,
i simply dont get what the problem is.
If you dont want to experience this because of personal reasons, then dont?
Why do we want to change content for all players just because some of them feel uncomfortable?
Cant we use our own brain to individually decide what type of content we want to experience or not
and then simply decide that this product is maybe not for me and thats it?
 
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Oh I absolutely sympathize with your sentiment. Society has become overly sensitive and a lot of people misuse social media to cause shitstorms in the name of good, because they're craving attention and a sense of power.

It's unfortunate, because a lot of non-issues get lumped in with actual social issues that deserve attention and the end of the day it just divides people more.

I stand by my initial point though. As long as the art doesn't suffer, I'm good.
If Ishin is received well, I'm sure RGG will reconsider localizing Kenzan and do it in a sensible way.

I guess we just have to wait and see.
 
You Arcade Clerk said:
Well, RGG has been self-censoring for the Japanese market as well. Case in point Pierre Taki and Hiroki Narimiya. Those are changes that probably wouldn't happen in Western studios.
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That change wouldn't happen there in the West because those studios are staffed by progressive fat potheads. Have you seen The Boring of Us Part 2? There's a disgusting scene with two stupid young girls doing drugs. Japan is totally against drugs.
 
I know Bruce literally just said this a few pages back, but it IS kinda weird how I rarely see anyone talk about the Hokuto no Ken game. I feel like I'd be all over that one if it ever came to PC, but maybe it's not QUITE as fucking awesome as it appears to me.
 
I only played the Hokuto no Ken demo and watched a couple of lets play episodes
but i got bored pretty fast. I dont know, youd think that especially this would be mega hype
with the brutal fights and over the top anime stuff but something about it
made it pretty forgetable for me after a couple of hours.

The bloody fights can only carry so much (and its not that deep, its on repeat very very fast)
but the actual missions and writing seemed very basic.
Yeah i get it, it has the famous quotes and the build up to fights and everything ...
but ive already seen this dozens of times in other content.
Maybe it gets way better later but the first 6, 7, 8 hours made me feel like i already saw everything there is to see.
And i'm not a huge fan of the manga or anime,
even the 152 anime episodes have way too much filler stuff for my taste.
Maybe its awesome if you are a fan, i dont know.
 
I was hating the Hokuto no Ken game at first and ended up loving it. It gets really fun once we unlock all the skills. You can send enemies into the air and keep hitting them while they're falling. Too bad it's only on PS4 so far.
 
I think Hokuto Ga Gotoku is a niche game and somewhat for the right reasons since it is based on a niche manga/anime. But I think Ishin Kiwami should include a book that talks about the real history of Japan during the time of that game. I think it'd be cool if it shares information on who the real Ryoma Sakamoto was, etc so international players have better context.
 
RyoHazuki84 said:
I think Hokuto Ga Gotoku is a niche game and somewhat for the right reasons since it is based on a niche manga/anime. But I think Ishin Kiwami should include a book that talks about the real history of Japan during the time of that game. I think it'd be cool if it shares information on who the real Ryoma Sakamoto was, etc so international players have better context.
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I think i read in some of the recent previews that the Ishin Remake
comes with a completely new made ingame background information text compilation
where it explains what Shinsengumi is and whats going on in this historical time period etc
 
Yeah, that's one thing RGG has always been good with (exposition/history), so I don't think that'll be the problem.

2013 caused us non-Japanese though (who didn't have knowledge of Japan's history, of course), to look up the Shinsengumi and learn about it organically from different sources, be it Wikipedia, scholarly sources, other mediums, etc. It's because of that, that we (well, me, at the very least) understood the plot and characters better, not to mention we had a much better grasp on the setting and ways of Japan at the time, because we were exposed to so much other stuff of that period, in researching and learning about the game.

The casuals of today will just get the game, read the stuff and that's it. I know it's just a game to the vast majority of people, but they won't fully grasp or understand the ESSENCE of everything Ishin! and will just go off and make stupid memes and other bullshit: I know for a FACT that people are going to meme the shit out of the Ee Ja Nai Ka substories, completely distorting and destroying the meaning and symbolism behind WHY citizens of Edo-Japan were doing it and just make fun of it outright (they're already comparing it to the cult, "movements," that take place in 0, which have nothing to do with Ee Ja Nai Ka and it was in a game that came out over a year after Ishin!).

As Tosh said, call me a curmudgeonly old man, but it's not showing the proper respect and honour that should be shown and it isn't in the correct spirit of the game itself.
 
I bought the PS4 Japanese Ishin remaster here in Japan last year and sold it as soon I completed it, and I can't see myself getting it again unless they beef up those fighting styles. Each of them felt underdeveloped (think of a worse version of Yakuza 0 weapon wielding) and far too repetitive, even though they looked great. Oh man and that sword and gun combo - a great idea in theory, only.
 
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