General RGG Discussion

[Alex banana]

Pre-Yakuza 7 games were great because of the larger-than-life characters that suited the serious and unironic setting. Their actions were ridiculous, but it fit their character and the environment, whereas Y7 was completely the opposite.

I normally don't care about lore and all that nonsense, but a homeless guy, an unemployed driving instructor and a hostess (all of whom are painfully boring) defeating Kiryu in a fantasy fish-out-water scenario feels 'off' to me, like (forgive the comparison) turning The Godfather into a self-aware comedy. The previously wacky side quests have bled into main story/core gameplay and it has the tone jumping all over the place in Y7, from serious to wacky and back again. It's like if Haruka woke up with Kiryu's powers in Y6 and just wiped everyone out. A cool idea for a minigame or a PC mod, but I wouldn't make it the entire game.

I have two hopes for Y8 -
1) A return to a clear difference in tone between story/gameplay and wacky side quests.
2) In the knowledge that they won't go back to the action battle system, I would settle with them keeping the team of playable characters small and making the RPG battle system more indepth, 'cause I could easily see it becoming an overcrowded band of underdeveloped cameos and a regurgitated battle system, further diluting the product. The reason the card battle simulation minigame in Y6 was fun was because it was a crazy minigame, not the entire battle system, which Y7 basically morphed it into.

I don't have high hopes for the above considering RGG's iterative approach to development though, so I may just have to force myself through it and sell it shortly after.

 

[Spaghetti]

Not a flaw, not a design issue, etc.: you guys are just being stubborn (seriously).

SERIOUSLY, switch to any job in one of the huge undergrounds, with just 2 characters. Any job.

By the time you finish the, "dungeon," once, you'll be at level 10 or so and more than high-enough to continue on.

It's an incentive to play the game more (as you don't NEED to switch jobs, as you've mentioned), not a design flaw.

"You're playing it wrong" feels a bit of a copout for a game I put 70 hours into, tbh.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

Pre-Yakuza 7 games were great because of the larger-than-life characters that suited the serious and unironic setting. Their actions were ridiculous, but it fit their character and the environment, whereas Y7 was completely the opposite.

I normally don't care about lore and all that nonsense, but a homeless guy, an unemployed driving instructor and a hostess (all of whom are painfully boring) defeating Kiryu in a fantasy fish-out-water scenario feels 'off' to me, like (forgive the comparison) turning The Godfather into a self-aware comedy. The previously wacky side quests have bled into main story/core gameplay and it has the tone jumping all over the place in Y7, from serious to wacky and back again. It's like if Haruka woke up with Kiryu's powers in Y6 and just wiped everyone out. A cool idea for a minigame or a PC mod, but I wouldn't make it the entire game..

This is a point that I’m surprised I NEVER thought about, given how much of a prick I am when it comes to this same thing in movies. While I didn’t have a problem at all with it in Y7, it is a totally valid point, and I can see some people being put off by it. I don’t necessary see it as a fault against the game, since it sort of is a creative decision rather than a gameplay mechanic, and I think it serves even more to differentiate this entry from the rest of the series. Honestly though, I don’t know how RGG could’ve incorporated the turn-based combat without making the characters self-aware about it. Believe me, I hate ironic characters/storytelling, but in this instance, not only do I think it works, but I also think RGG didn’t have much of a choice given the gameplay change-up. Hell, this entire game could’ve been framed within a dream sequence or something. However, this is another reason why I wish Y7 was more of a spin-off than a mainline entry.

* Totally not saying that I think all previous Yakuza games were grounded by any means

 

[BruceWayne911]

I've been watching walkthrough of Yakuza 7 just to anticipate the gameplay. I like how Sega portrays Ichiban as someone who grew up playing Dragon Quest games. He even says that he wouldn't be the man he is without them. Thats a nice nod at how the character approaches combat and his enemies.

 

[You Arcade Clerk]

Spoilers ahead for those who may not be up to speed

I normally don't care about lore and all that nonsense, but a homeless guy, an unemployed driving instructor and a hostess (all of whom are painfully boring) defeating Kiryu in a fantasy fish-out-water scenario feels 'off' to me, like (forgive the comparison) turning The Godfather into a self-aware comedy. The previously wacky side quests have bled into main story/core gameplay and it has the tone jumping all over the place in Y7, from serious to wacky and back again.

Except you don't actually defeat Kiryu. The cutscene after the fight makes it undeniably clear that Kiryu knocked out Ichiban. Kiryu not having so much as a scratch on him seems to imply that he didn't have too much trouble either. Kiryu was simply testing Ichi's strength/character. They even talk about the fight afterward with Ichi commenting that Kiryu's strength was the "real deal".

To further debunk any potential 'power scaling' complaints, you don't even come close to beating Majima and Saejima either. After you fight them they say something along the lines of not having to hold back anymore.

Emptying their health bar is simply a gameplay mechanic. The cutscenes after the fights clearly indicate what's actually happening.

I also wouldn't say the fantasy elements are bleeding into the main story as there is a very clear - spelled out for the audience - distinction between what's actually happening in the story and what's only happening in Ichi's mind during fights. Now, jumping from a serious cutscene to a Dragon Quest-ish battle may be off-putting to some players, but I think RGG has proven they have truly mastered tonal shifts.

Someone also said that the series has gone 'full videogame', even though that's what the franchise has been from its very inception. To name an example: in the very first game there is a Virtua Cop-style car chase shooting level - all part of the main story. The franchise being known for being story-driven doesn't (and shouldn't) somehow exclude that at the end of the day these are still videogames. If the story part is the *only* concern, why create or play a videogame? There are movies/shows/books/comics for that.

Not an opinion. You just don't like it. It's not even my top 4 favourite in the series and I deem it the best, so no bias from me either.

As much as I tend to agree with some of your takes and feel it can be annoying to see Kenzo taking every chance he gets to crap on 7, he does have a point; everyone has their own opinion.

Saying disliking something isn't an opinion is just ludicrous to me. Tastes/preferences/opinions may have somewhat differing definitions and philosophical implications, but at the end of the day they all kind of blend together.

Also, there's no such thing as objective quality in art. Might as well close the forum if that was the case lol.
Saying something is objectively good/bad is just another way of trying to shove an opinion down people's throats as fact.

This is art and the way we enjoy and interpret it is subjective by its very definition. Which brings me to my next point (I'm coming after all of you lol):

I didn’t mean to blame anyone. That’s just how it is. As much as I want to deeply believe that entertainment like movies and video games are art, they’re a business. So companies adapt accordingly in order to survive. That’s just how it is.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. A painter still wants to sell his paintings, a musician still wants to sell records etc.: artists want to be able to live off their work. Artistry is inherently also about making money. And according to critical consensus, most people seem to like the art.

Having said all that, it's possible that the Western release of Ishin has elements in it that take a step back from the original Japanese release, but given RGG's track record I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here.

I think you guys have people like me to blame. I didn't join the Yakuza train till 0. It feels like they are catering toward the new audiences. Yakuza not underground no more its hit the mainstream. Hopefully none of the West PC bullshit touches and ruins the series for you Day One Yakuza guys. How did you guys like 0, Judgement/Lost Judgement and Yakuza 7? Has the series changed at all from its roots?

I've been a fan of the franchise since day 1 and I still feel very much catered to. Obviously some things have changed, but in terms of quality I'd say it's always been up there and still is.

In closing, none of this was meant as an attack, just saw some takes that made me scratch my head.

I realize that the turn-based RPG and fantasy elements aren't for everybody and that's completely fine, but I find it a shame that some people don't even seem willing to give the latest entry a fair shake or are already knocking the upcoming Ishin release. People tend to jump to conclusions prematurely and when you're predetermined to dislike something, you're not really keeping an open mind. Therefore you might be robbing yourself of a rewarding experience.

 

[BruceWayne911]

Yakuza 1-4 got reprinted available at Amazon and other retailers, just picked some for myself.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

"You're playing it wrong" feels a bit of a copout for a game I put 70 hours into, tbh.

lol I didn't say that Spags; I'm saying that starting the jobs from ground zero is incentive to play the game more. They aren't necessary to furthering the game in any way, aside from just getting more trophies or becoming more well-rounded: it's 100% optional.

So yeah, it's not that you're playing it wrong, it's incentive to put more hours into the game. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but that's hardly a design flaw.

Spoilers ahead for those who may not be up to speed


Except you don't actually defeat Kiryu. The cutscene after the fight makes it undeniably clear that Kiryu knocked out Ichiban. Kiryu not having so much as a scratch on him seems to imply that he didn't have too much trouble either. Kiryu was simply testing Ichi's strength/character. They even talk about the fight afterward with Ichi commenting that Kiryu's strength was the "real deal".

To further debunk any potential 'power scaling' complaints, you don't even come close to beating Majima and Saejima either. After you fight them they say something along the lines of not having to hold back anymore.

Emptying their health bar is simply a gameplay mechanic. The cutscenes after the fights clearly indicate what's actually happening.

I also wouldn't say the fantasy elements are bleeding into the main story as there is a very clear - spelled out for the audience - distinction between what's actually happening in the story and what's only happening in Ichi's mind during fights. Now, jumping from a serious cutscene to a Dragon Quest-ish battle may be off-putting to some players, but I think RGG has proven they have truly mastered tonal shifts.

Someone also said that the series has gone 'full videogame', even though that's what the franchise has been from its very inception. To name an example: in the very first game there is a Virtua Cop-style car chase shooting level - all part of the main story. The franchise being known for being story-driven doesn't (and shouldn't) somehow exclude that at the end of the day these are still videogames. If the story part is the *only* concern, why create or play a videogame? There are movies/shows/books/comics for that.


As much as I tend to agree with some of your takes and feel it can be annoying to see Kenzo taking every chance he gets to crap on 7, he does have a point; everyone has their own opinion.

Saying disliking something isn't an opinion is just ludicrous to me. Tastes/preferences/opinions may have somewhat differing definitions and philosophical implications, but at the end of the day they all kind of blend together.

Also, there's no such thing as objective quality in art. Might as well close the forum if that was the case lol.
Saying something is objectively good/bad is just another way of trying to shove an opinion down people's throats as fact.

This is art and the way we enjoy and interpret it is subjective by its very definition. Which brings me to my next point (I'm coming after all of you lol):


I realize that the turn-based RPG and fantasy elements aren't for everybody and that's completely fine, but I find it a shame that some people don't even seem willing to give the latest entry a fair shake or are already knocking the upcoming Ishin release. People tend to jump to conclusions prematurely and when you're predetermined to dislike something, you're not really keeping an open mind. Therefore you might be robbing yourself of a rewarding experience.

First part, absolutely wonderful; good to see someone else who understands the game on another level.

Second part, you misunderstood me lol.

I am in 100% agreement that everyone has their own opinion: I'm not denying that.

I *never* said that disliking something isn't an opinion: of course it is! That's my exact point I was making to him: he doesn't like it, so he thinks it's bad. That's bias/not giving a fair shake, BECAUSE of opinion.

Videogames, while art, also have objective points to them in spades: objectively, while looking phenomenal, the RGG games have never been the best graphically on their respective consoles, from a character model POV. That's something that cannot be disputed, like how 'mue was leaps and bounds ahead of any game that had come out before it, in terms or graphical quality/detail for character models.

Writing, as well (my area of expertise), is another thing where objectivity comes into play, same with replay and of course, the main thing of any game, gameplay.

How you feel about anything in life should not have a bearing on its quality or objective standing in its medium/life/whatever; how YOU react to it and how YOU see it is absolutely apt, but it doesn't mean that how you see/feel it is reality.

RGG3 is my favourite game in the series, by far. It's not even a top 3 game and 7, which is tops, is my 5th favourite. I mean, 1 is my 3rd favourite and it is arguably the worst in the series (bottom 3 for sure): it's ok to like something that isn't as good or to dislike something that is great, but when giving things a fair shake, one needs to remove emotion and personal feelings/opinions, otherwise it will always be skewed/biased/etc.

So that was behind my, "it's great, you just didn't like it," comment and I use that line quite a bit because it is absolutely true: just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't incredibly good.

Can't agree more with your 3rd paragraph as well; I know I'm slightly guilty ITT of what you're saying, but:

1. I've played through Ishin! 3 times.
2. Money is super tight.
3. I'm not interested in the new additions, from what has been shown/detailed thus far. Not going to pan the game, but I'm not interested, thus will skip.

And adding the goddamn villains from 0 as replacements for certain Shinsengumi members really pisses me off and was CLEARLY done just to appeal to the West: there was nothing wrong with the original people.

And that goes for Takechi Hanpeita's actor (Katsunori Takahashi) as well: he was PHENOMENAL in the role and was a fresh face. FOH with getting rid of him for rehashes.

 

[Spaghetti]

lol I didn't say that Spags; I'm saying that starting the jobs from ground zero is incentive to play the game more. They aren't necessary to furthering the game in any way, aside from just getting more trophies or becoming more well-rounded: it's 100% optional.

So yeah, it's not that you're playing it wrong, it's incentive to put more hours into the game. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but that's hardly a design flaw.

Yeaaaaaaah, okay I guess I was being uncharitable. But I really did experiment and play around with jobs while it made more sense early on! Just after a while it makes sense to spend time and resources on your specialism.

Putting it a nice way, the freedom to miss things is a hallmark of a game that doesn't want to spoon feed you... even if it may have the occasional drawback.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

I think Yakuza 7 is a good enough game and would recommend it to both fans and non-fans of the series. I also understand that Yakuza 7, along with the rest of the games in the series, along with video games in general, are video games. And video games should play like video games. I just like to try to suspend my disbelief sometimes. And no, I don’t think Yakuza 7 fully embracing and “going full video game” is a bad thing. Do I like the direction? Not really, no. But I’ll still play it, like what I like, and not like what I don’t like. Regarding creating art vs. what the audience wants, I’m an artist that’s been trying to make a living off my own work for years. But I also don’t want to compromise my work for the sake of reaching a wider audience. Am I saying that RGG is compromising their own vision by adding fireballs and other outlandish things to Ishin Kiwami in order to reach a wider, post-Yakuza 0 audience? No…but I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case. Either way, I’ll most likely still be buying it.

 

[You Arcade Clerk]

Would you look at that; all reasonable responses. On the internet!

I was half expecting to get crapped on from all sides lol.

@Truck_1_0_1_ I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the objective quality front, but I can at least see where you're coming from and sympathize to a certain extent.

@Your Boy Leroy Something extremely important to always keep in mind is the distinction between the creatives that actually work on a project and your typical 'upper management' corporate drones forcing decisions down everyone's throat.

The latter typically couldn't care less about the actual quality of a project, all they care about is numbers (even though, ironically, bad quality usually results in bad numbers) whereas the former typically strive to create something great.

I work in software development and have experience with that struggle first hand - and we're not even making games, just run-of-the-mill software solutions.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

Yeah man, I tend to generalize the darker, business side of the entertainment industry, mostly because I’m just so damn bitter about it . But you’re absolutely right. It’s the suits and the others with the money who ultimately (and unfortunately) have the final say. On the very rare occasions when the creative side and the business side are on the same page, beautiful things happen. But I’d say most of the time, it doesn’t, and that’s just how it is. That’s why I sort of jumped the gun on the whole Ishin Kiwami thing. I caught a feint whiff of creativity being compromised by business and immediately turned into the bitter-ass self-righteous starving artist son of a bitch that I am

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Yeaaaaaaah, okay I guess I was being uncharitable. But I really did experiment and play around with jobs while it made more sense early on! Just after a while it makes sense to spend time and resources on your specialism.

Putting it a nice way, the freedom to miss things is a hallmark of a game that doesn't want to spoon feed you... even if it may have the occasional drawback.

I agree with you 100%; they should've opened it up around chapter 4 or 5, rather than 7. And also agree on the spoon feed comment; as much as RGG gets crapped on for, "waypoints," and, "markers," etc., you can miss a SHIT-TON of things in-game.

Would you look at that; all reasonable responses. On the internet!

I was half expecting to get crapped on from all sides lol.

@Truck_1_0_1_ I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the objective quality front, but I can at least see where you're coming from and sympathize to a certain extent.

Not a problem at all! To this day, I still haven't met anyone who sees objectivity in the way I do lol, so I too know where you're coming from

Now bring on the Gaiden news! I know we'll get a lot more Ishin! at first, simply because it's the bigger game and it will come out first, but I want Gaiden stuff!

 

[BruceWayne911]

It's probably safe to assume that RGG will bring all the spin offs to the West seeing what there doing with Ishin. At least I hope so.

 

[You Arcade Clerk]

BTW do we know if Gaiden will be a standalone game or DLC to 7?

From the Summit it wasn't entirely clear to me, but I could have missed something.

 

[BruceWayne911]

Just got finish watching the first 3hrs of Yakuza 7 and it looks pretty impressive. Even the turn based combat looks Yakuza like. I like how if Ichiban was standing next to a bike when getting ready to attack he would use the bike and then initiate his attack. Just from observing it seems to still hang on to the essence of Yakuza. I gotta buckle down and finish these games I just started Kiwami 2 so I won't be playing 7 anytime soon.

Does Judgement/Lost Judgement take place after Yakuza 6?

 

[Tosh]

BTW do we know if Gaiden will be a standalone game or DLC to 7?

From the Summit it wasn't entirely clear to me, but I could have missed something.

Its not a DLC or digital add on or anything like that. Its an actual new single player game release.
They said its a little bit longer than Kaitos Lost Judgment story DLC.
So i dont know, maybe its like a 39,99-49,99 USD / Euro release.

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

Just got finish watching the first 3hrs of Yakuza 7 and it looks pretty impressive. Even the turn based combat looks Yakuza like. I like how if Ichiban was standing next to a bike when getting ready to attack he would use the bike and then initiate his attack. Just from observing it seems to still hang on to the essence of Yakuza. I gotta buckle down and finish these games I just started Kiwami 2 so I won't be playing 7 anytime soon.

Does Judgement/Lost Judgement take place after Yakuza 6?

Yeah, I’m pretty sure they take place after 6.

 

[Kenzo130]

BTW do we know if Gaiden will be a standalone game or DLC to 7?

From the Summit it wasn't entirely clear to me, but I could have missed something.

I can't wait for gaiden it the only upcoming rgg game im interested in but I hope the game will be like the old yakuza games

 

[You Arcade Clerk]

Aside from the period pieces, the games usually take place in the year they're released in.

 

[You Arcade Clerk]

Its not a DLC or digital add on or anything like that. Its an actual new single player game release.
They said its a little bit longer than Kaitos Lost Judgment story DLC.
So i dont know, maybe its like a 39,99-49,99 USD / Euro release.

IIRC they mentioned something about being smaller than a numbered release but larger than The Kaito Files, which made me question if the game would see a stand alone release.

Your guesstimation about it potentially being a slightly cheaper release would make sense given the circumstances.

I can't wait for gaiden it the only upcoming rgg game im interested in but I hope the game will be like the old yakuza games

Didn't they hint that it would be closer to 6?