Does the lack of Shenmue 4 change your opinion of Shenmue 3?

A vanishingly small number. His other Shenmue video is extremely positive about Shenmue 2 and I equally don't think that helped the sales of the HD collection.

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This is from the set of RotJ; I will hear no more body shaming of peak Harrison Ford (who, honestly, is one of the main reasons Star Wars worked so well in the first place).

It's the difference between having to run multiple companies while being able to take care of your kids and grandkids, and having generational wealth long after you're gone while being able to truly retire worry-free.

He really doesn't seem to like directing much. Even before the prequels, his last directing credit is Star Wars. So, not counting Star Wars, he's only directed 2 feature length movies since the '70s. If hundreds of millions of dollars, the adoration of the world, and decades of being able to do whatever you want weren't enough to energize him to make movies, I don't see how a different reaction to the prequels (and that truly awful Indiana Jones movie) would have. It's possible that Suzuki has a similar c'est la vie attitude.
In that pic you can clearly see his belly fat pouring over his belt.

He was definitely bored doing the movie and on set he was likely scarfing donuts and doing lines of coke with Carrie Fisher before Marquand dragged him back in front of the cameras to do another half assed scene with the teddy bears.
source: https://www.allthefanfare.com/return-of-the-jedi-hollywood-cocaine-era/

I also noticed that you didn't have a retort to the castration of Solo in Jedi because clearly he was.

You don't think that the $200 million that GL had before the sale to the Disney Slavers was enough for "generational wealth"? Besides, GL is donating the Disney money anyway.

And just look at the light in GL's eyes when he was making the prequels vs today... toxic fanboys ruined his passion for creating Star Wars.

Taking this back to Shenmue…. maybe we could reach out to George Lucas to help fund Shenmue 4?

Maybe he will sympathize with a fellow creator who never got to complete his story?
 
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Did he though?
In as much that he seems to have had full editorial control over the project, yes. He may have been held back in some places by budget limitations and seems to have willingly made a few concessions so as to be able to thank the fans who made the game possible, but the decisions were all still his to make.

Securing a publisher is the only move if you can't self finance and it was my understanding from fairly early on that the KS wouldn't cover the entire cost of development.
Well, he could have also reigned in the scope and scale of the project so that it could be completed on a smaller budget. Tbf, I suspect that he may have still been forced to do that to a certain degree (at least when compared to his original vision), but yes. If his aim was to make the best possible Shenmue 3, he really had no other option than to seek additional funding. As I say, I can’t fault him for doing so.

If I had to guess, he probably attempted something like this but chose to put all his eggs in the S3 basket rather than split the baby. Which still leaves open the question of why S3 is barely trying to appeal to non-fans.
In the past, some forum members have speculated that there may have been a sales target that, if met, would have led to Deep Silver greenlighting a fourth game. This seems somewhat plausible to me, although, if that were the case, the agreed upon target was seemingly too ambitious.

Why do you assume this? It's my understanding that all the KS money went to funding development (and the associated rewards which were doubtlessly a headache).
A few years ago I spoke to a senior member of Deep Silver at a game show. He confirmed that Shenmue 3 did indeed break even thanks to the Epic deal, but that not everybody who helped to finance the game got their money back. At the time, I assumed that he was talking about Cedric or Sony, but in hindsight, I think he may have been talking about YS NET.

Again, this is still an assumption on my part, but if Yu had seven million dollars just sitting around in the bank, it’s hard to believe that he’d have allowed the series to fall dormant again, especially after the success of the anime, and with age starting to catch up to him.

I find this incredibly worrying as S3 steps on several fairly large rakes that anyone with even a passing knowledge of the series' reputation and/or the wider gaming audience would know to avoid.
As I said earlier: this was Yu’s game to make. Whether we like it or not, what we got was very much a Yu Suzuki game, which I think is what most of us wanted when we backed the project.

Evidently his initial instinct was to focus on the story and his mind was changed early in development. Who knows?
I don’t profess to know Yu Suzuki all that well, but he really doesn’t seem like a man whose mind is easily swayed. I think his more recent comments about the story are just his way of showing fans that he understands some of the criticism. That said, if somebody did talk Yu into turning his attention away from the story, I hope that that person has nothing to do with the Shenmue franchise moving forward.
 
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It doesn't really change my perception of S3 for the better or the worse.
I think S3 is a bad game, probably the only bad game Yu has ever made in his career. Don't wanna go into detail how I think it's bad, it's been done so many times over during the last 5 years. Let's just say YS Net had their priorities all wrong for the game imho.
My point is, there's almost no chance of me ever replaying S3 and even a good S4 game would likely not change that.
 
This is a totally different kind of thing. I wasn't aware that he did anything like this. What did he do?
Repsonding to comments in his video - I'd have to see if they are still there or he removed them. Either way it resulted in some response videos shortly afterwards which didn't gather anything near the attention his video did.
I don't think Suzuki set out to make a bad game, no one does, but it's not clear to me from S3 that he has a strong vision for the series beyond what the fans want/expect. I simply don't see what he's driving at with these games based on what he says (7 games of epic storyline that represent his life's work) compared with what we got in S3. I mean, forklifts? Grinding for money? Asking random NPCs the same question over and over? These are the things that people who make fun of Shenmue would put in Shenmue 3.

If you find the bad voice acting "charming" and/or you're enjoying the games "ironically" that's fine, but the game should not be designed around those tastes (unless, of course, Shenmue is supposed to be like The Room or something). Making a game that people can't easily point and laugh at isn't actually that hard.
This is part of what I think Suzuki deliberatly did for the fans - now it can be looked at as the wrong decision from a wider perspective but I get where it came from. Certinaly in terms of the VO and the feel more based around the world and mini-games. You'd have thought people would have said to him the VO needed updating to be more natural?
Anyone who is vying for realistic, achievable goals should absolutely be elevated over people convincing him to spend another 5 years on a single installment.

Same, though it's extremely unlikely in this industry.

This is the right idea. If Shenmue's fanbase is approximately 400k and Suzuki can self publish, it could actually be very profitable for him.
I think I said this in a previous comment - that this is where the issue is. What YSNET think they can do and what might be more realisitc. It's how that is brought to a good place for all parties that will allow a deal to be signed. I say this with the caveat that I am not a developer in the slightest but I see no real reason why they couldn't use the 3 engine as it is (maybe tidy it a bit have one dub etc) and make a story driven Shenmue 4 (or chapters of) for $8-10m. Hell even keep most of the mini-games the same and reduce work there. Of course, the risk with something like episodic is two fold: 1. you run the risk of being in the same situation as we are now but just slightly further in from a story view and 2. the market could reduce further if not through fatigue but also if the story does not engage people enough.
Very true, but at this point what's left to lose? Here's what I would do if I were him: do a complete restart of the series (he should take a look at all those chapters he wants to do and lock the story down from a high level) and let's say you have 11 chapters. You make the game within a smaller budget (2D or limited 3D; one day I'll draw up some concept art of what I mean) and get all your tools in order to be able to have a relatively quick turn around. You can then sell each chapter for something like $10 (hell, you could probably go higher and Shenmue fans wouldn't mind) and have them be a bit shorter and snappier. I would also launch this with the content of the first 3 games already done and maybe a bonus chapter (If we're on chapter 5, that would make this a $50 game initially). Then you release the additional chapters one at a time as they're done. That way, you're in full control of the storyline, you have an engine and dev tools ready to go so all you need to do is focus on content, and you have a much faster turn around time because of the reduced scope. You could probably have the whole series done inside 5(ish) years depending on the size of the team for a fraction of the cost of trying to do it the S3 way and not only would you end up with a much better final product (due to it being much easier to polish up and add content), you'd also be making money right off the bat (assuming ~400k people buy it).
The story itself is novalised so he absolutely has a basis to work from there. I'd be very interested to see this concept idea but I appreciate time is pressed! I guess what comes to pass here is whether the vision for Shenmue for Suzuki could be compromised - I think the community would accept something scaled back if it told the story well.
 
Here's what I would do if I were him: do a complete restart of the series (he should take a look at all those chapters he wants to do and lock the story down from a high level) and let's say you have 11 chapters. You make the game within a smaller budget (2D or limited 3D; one day I'll draw up some concept art of what I mean) and get all your tools in order to be able to have a relatively quick turn around. You can then sell each chapter for something like $10 (hell, you could probably go higher and Shenmue fans wouldn't mind) and have them be a bit shorter and snappier. I would also launch this with the content of the first 3 games already done and maybe a bonus chapter (If we're on chapter 5, that would make this a $50 game initially). Then you release the additional chapters one at a time as they're done. That way, you're in full control of the storyline, you have an engine and dev tools ready to go so all you need to do is focus on content, and you have a much faster turn around time because of the reduced scope. You could probably have the whole series done inside 5(ish) years depending on the size of the team for a fraction of the cost of trying to do it the S3 way and not only would you end up with a much better final product (due to it being much easier to polish up and add content), you'd also be making money right off the bat (assuming ~400k people buy it).

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are proposing a Telltale or visual novel-style experience. How would you implement the gameplay such as combat or item collection?
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are proposing a Telltale or visual novel-style experience. How would you implement the gameplay such as combat or item collection?
This would be awful.

Some people clearly only want the story of Shenmue to be completed so they can move on. Even if the “game” is just a glorified movie.

They care nothing about the deep and immersive game world of Shenmue.
 
This is a very good point, particularly when a director's style or property becomes a "brand". It's hard to say if that's true of Suzuki since Shenmue is the only high profile console game he's ever made but it definitely appears to be true of the Shenmue IP.
Thanks ☺️ I know what you mean by the only high profile, like saying the more ambitious in terms of scope, budget, tech... But my picky/pedant side can't avoid pointing that Shenmue wasn't the only defining game in YS career. Lets remember both VF 1&2 are featured in the Smithsonian and the latter even was the star at Siggraph'95 (fug Im old). Outrun was one of those cabinets which defined the arcade centers layout. But like I said, thats me being picky and its clear whats your point. Those games have no comparison with Shenmue even in hype factor.

I don't think that Suzuki believed that S3 would cause him to be beloved by the masses.
Clearly he didn't. I think that was the whole point of the kickstarter.

S3 was clearly the victim of a troubled development, but I mean he literally had everything going his way at least initially.
I agree. It was even endangered (again) at some point iirc. I believe crowdfunded games development are twice risky and high-bar in expectations.

Very true. It's for this reason (and many others) that it should have been scrapped.
Ouch! Mean iknifaugood, mean! 😂 We can agree about scrapping the english voices in favour of japanese only like in DC Shenmue 2. I'm afraid that in case you're talking about mute characters then we have different points of view.
 
In as much that he seems to have had full editorial control over the project, yes. He may have been held back in some places by budget limitations and seems to have willingly made a few concessions so as to be able to thank the fans who made the game possible, but the decisions were all still his to make.
I totally agree that, as the head of the project, he deserves all the praise/blame, but if I thought S3 was the extent of Suzuki's vision for the series, I would not be interested in S4. It was clearly compromised on multiple fronts, regardless of whether or not I think it should have been.
In the past, some forum members have speculated that there may have been a sales target that, if met, would have led to Deep Silver greenlighting a fourth game. This seems somewhat plausible to me, although, if that were the case, the agreed upon target was seemingly too ambitious.
That's usually the way these things go, along with a timeframe. I would imagine that we're looking at a new publisher or self publishing at this point.
Shenmue 3 did indeed break even thanks to the Epic deal, but that not everybody who helped to finance the game got their money back.
How is this possible? Doesn't breaking even mean everyone gets their money back? I can't say I'm overly familiar with how many people helped finance the game but however many it is, it appears to have been too many.
As I said earlier: this was Yu’s game to make. Whether we like it or not, what we got was very much a Yu Suzuki game, which I think is what most of us wanted when we backed the project.
While I definitely agree that it was Yu's game to make, I personally backed the game to see the continuation and eventual conclusion of the series, not for a "Yu Suzuki game" (whatever that means in this context). Implicit in that is the understanding that S3 would be leading to more sequels.
I don’t profess to know Yu Suzuki all that well, but he really doesn’t seem like a man whose mind is easily swayed. I think his more recent comments about the story are just his way of showing fans that he understands some of the criticism. That said, if somebody did talk Yu into turning his attention away from the story, I hope that that person has nothing to do with the Shenmue franchise moving forward.
@spud1897 mentioned an interview with Ryan Payton where this is mentioned. He also mentions pushing back against Suzuki on the paywall stuff so I don't know. Worth a listen as it's some of the only insight into the development of S3 that I've personally found (and it's a really good interview in general).
 
Repsonding to comments in his video - I'd have to see if they are still there or he removed them. Either way it resulted in some response videos shortly afterwards which didn't gather anything near the attention his video did.
Responding to comments is fine, but removing negative comments is definitely shitty (depending on the comment, obviously).
This is part of what I think Suzuki deliberatly did for the fans - now it can be looked at as the wrong decision from a wider perspective but I get where it came from. Certinaly in terms of the VO and the feel more based around the world and mini-games. You'd have thought people would have said to him the VO needed updating to be more natural?
It's possible that they assumed that, with the inclusion of the Japanese dub, they figured they covered all their bases. But that demonstrates a gross naiveté of how the internet works and how Shenmue has been mocked over the years.
I see no real reason why they couldn't use the 3 engine as it is (maybe tidy it a bit have one dub etc) and make a story driven Shenmue 4 (or chapters of) for $8-10m. Hell even keep most of the mini-games the same and reduce work there.
If we're talking about a complete reskin of S3 (so basically reused assets, exact same engine, UI etc.), what you'd save by doing this would be almost totally undone at this point by having to bring on a new team to work with the existing code. It would definitely be cheaper, but it depends entirely on the scope, which is why I keep mentioning that doing Shenmue in 3D, particularly at the quality that S3 strove for, is inherently expensive. Creating these big open 3D environments at the detail that S3 shoots for is expensive, choreographing branching 3D QTE action sequences is expensive, animating all the cutscenes is expensive (and requires lots of planning). $10M is probably a good number but then $10M might not be enough to turn a profit, certainly not if marketing is an additional cost.
Of course, the risk with something like episodic is two fold: 1. you run the risk of being in the same situation as we are now but just slightly further in from a story view and 2. the market could reduce further if not through fatigue but also if the story does not engage people enough.
The goal would be to keep the costs low enough that the initial push carries you through profitability. Essentially your budget should cover the entire production, but you release it piecemeal at a premium price point (considering that, for the entire story, it would be more expensive than a AAA game). This way you're lowering your dev costs and increasing your potential revenue (as Shenmue has no real other way to do this apart from crowdfunding).
 
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Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are proposing a Telltale or visual novel-style experience.
Not at all. While Shenmue certainly has a lot in common with PC point and click adventure games, it has very little in common with Telltale's formula. TT games are designed first and foremost to give the illusion of choice; you're constantly presented with multiple choice options and being told that characters are "remembering" your choices--Shenmue doesn't lend itself to that at all and is extremely linear.
How would you implement the gameplay such as combat or item collection?
Shenmue should play like an RPG, which is essentially what it is. It should have a focus on combat (which is why I favor 2D, because it's essentially fighting game mechanics and 2D is more cost effective), learning moves, interacting with characters, and exploring the environment. It should focus less on rendering everything in obsessive detail and limit superfluous content. If you adopted my "episodic" model and wanted to include a levelling system, you could even cap Ryo's level for each chapter. I don't really see anything in Shenmue's design that necessitates 3D and I think working backward from that assumption will only leave the series in its perpetual state of being needlessly expensive.
Some people clearly only want the story of Shenmue to be completed so they can move on. Even if the “game” is just a glorified movie.
Shenmue is a story first, so that should always be the priority. S1 and 2 have hours and hours of cutscenes, most of the "gameplay" is walking around pressing A on things and ridiculously complex combat for how little its used.
They care nothing about the deep and immersive game world of Shenmue.
A bunch of expensively rendered set dressing that isn't conducive to exploration is unsustainable in this day and age. Part of Shenmue's "formula" necessitates having huge detailed 3D environments with fully voiced NPCs that the player never needs to interact with and it also has almost no "side quests" to help facilitate that exploration. Shenmue's world is one of its biggest strengths but if you think that it can only be that way with a crazy expensive budget then you don't actually like Shenmue's world; you like expensive tech demos.
 
Thanks ☺️ I know what you mean by the only high profile, like saying the more ambitious in terms of scope, budget, tech... But my picky/pedant side can't avoid pointing that Shenmue wasn't the only defining games in YS career. Lets remember both VF 1&2 are featured in the Smithsonian and the latter even was the star at Siggraph'95 (fug Im old). Outrun was one of those cabinets which defined the arcade centers layout. But like I said, thats me being picky and its clear whats your point. Those games have no comparison with Shenmue even in hype factor.
I meant his only high profile console game, which is necessarily very different from his arcade games.
Ouch! Mean iknifaugood, mean! 😂 We can agree about scrapping the english voices in favour of japanese only like in DC Shenmue 2. I'm afraid that of you're talking about mute characters then we have different points of view.
S3 should definitely have only had one dub. And if we're insisting on fully voiced NPCs then Shenmue needs a new way of handling dialogue and fewer interactive NPCs. There are no solutions in game development, only tradeoffs (unless you're Rockstar in which case the solution is money). What was present as final dialogue in S3 is unacceptable in a modern game.
 
I totally agree that, as the head of the project, he deserves all the praise/blame, but if I thought S3 was the extent of Suzuki's vision for the series, I would not be interested in S4. It was clearly compromised on multiple fronts, regardless of whether or not I think it should have been.
I don't think that Shenmue 3 was the game that he set out to make, nor do I believe that he's completely satisfied with the way that it turned out. Like you, I'd probably have done a few things differently if I were him, but then there are likely a lot of extenuating circumstances that you and I will never be privy to that shaped a lot of the decisions we see as strange.
That's usually the way these things go, along with a timeframe. I would imagine that we're looking at a new publisher or self publishing at this point.
I don't think anybody is still holding out hope for Deep Silver at this point. Those who are seem destined for disappointment.
How is this possible? Doesn't breaking even mean everyone gets their money back? I can't say I'm overly familiar with how many people helped finance the game but however many it is, it appears to have been too many.
You seem to be working on the assumption that all of the profit generated by a video game is split evenly between the publisher and the developer, which is seldom the case. I have no idea what the exact terms of the deal between YS Net and Deep Silver were, but typically, there'll be an amount of money that a game needs to generate before the developer starts receiving royalties. More often than not, the publisher gets their investment back (or at least a very healthy chunk of it) before the developer sees a dime.

Had Deep Silver provided all of the funding for the project, this kind of deal would have made sense, but given that YS Net entered negotiations with a healthy proportion of the total budget in their pocket, it's disappointing that they seem to have come away from the endeavor with less than they put in. Again, this is complete conjecture on my part, as it could have been Cedric or Sony (or some unknown financial partner) that didn't get all of their money back, but if YS Net had $7m+ sat around in the bank (which they would, if they'd agreed a 50/50 revenue split with DS), I'm fairly certain that they'd have been able to find a partner by now.
While I definitely agree that it was Yu's game to make, I personally backed the game to see the continuation and eventual conclusion of the series, not for a "Yu Suzuki game" (whatever that means in this context). Implicit in that is the understanding that S3 would be leading to more sequels.
Tomato tomato, really. Shenmue is a Yu Suzuki game, ergo, wanting a new Shenmue game is akin to wanting a new Yu Suzuki game. Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying and would also have liked to have seen more time spent developing the story, but that's just me. Some people love Shenmue for the combat, while others enjoy playing around with all of the mini-games or marveling at all of the innovative mechanics and ideas. Shenmue means different things to different people, so trying to find the right balance between all that while also appealing to new players must have been very difficult. I'm sure he did what he thought was best.
@spud1897 mentioned an interview with Ryan Payton where this is mentioned. He also mentions pushing back against Suzuki on the paywall stuff so I don't know. Worth a listen as it's some of the only insight into the development of S3 that I've personally found (and it's a really good interview in general).
I did listen to the RP interview when it was first released, though that was some time ago now. Perhaps I need a recap!
 
I don't think that Shenmue 3 was the game that he set out to make, nor do I believe that he's completely satisfied with the way that it turned out. Like you, I'd probably have done a few things differently if I were him, but then there are likely a lot of extenuating circumstances that you and I will never be privy to that shaped a lot of the decisions we see as strange.
It's extremely easy for a game to get away from you and development time that seems like forever (S3 had approx 4 years) absolutely flies by. Having been through a similarly troubled project, I have to say that most of these issues come down to poor planning and scope/feature creep. Your hands are often tied based on split second decisions made early on that you never would have made as the project develops.
You seem to be working on the assumption that all of the profit generated by a video game is split evenly between the publisher and the developer, which is seldom the case. I have no idea what the exact terms of the deal between YS Net and Deep Silver were, but typically, there'll be an amount of money that a game needs to generate before the developer starts receiving royalties. More often than not, the publisher gets their investment back (or at least a very healthy chunk of it) before the developer sees a dime.
Having gone through this a few times, publishers always recoup their investment before any kind of rev share, which is why I don't really see how it can be said to have "broke even" without everyone making their investment back. Of course merely making your money back is still considered a failure, and it's possible that investors backed the project based on projected revenue but then that opens up a whole other can of worms. Suffice to say that any investor pursuing this is going to have a lot of say in the direction of the project.
Had Deep Silver provided all of the funding for the project, this kind of deal would have made sense, but given that YS Net entered negotiations with a healthy proportion of the total budget in their pocket, it's disappointing that they seem to have come away from the endeavor with less than they put in. Again, this is complete conjecture on my part, as it could have been Cedric or Sony (or some unknown financial partner) that didn't get all of their money back, but if YS Net had $7m+ sat around in the bank (which they would, if they'd agreed a 50/50 revenue split with DS), I'm fairly certain that they'd have been able to find a partner by now.
DS would not view the KS money as "budget" but rather sales, so I would be shocked if the rev split was anything less than 70/30 in their favor unless they grossly overestimated the potential sales. I'm not sure how the ~$20M pie was split but you're right that it's definitely possible that YSNet lost money. It's clear that DS were worried about the project, they were announced as publisher in 2017 and the Epic deal was announced in 2019 (which was pretty close to the game's launch window).
Tomato tomato, really. Shenmue is a Yu Suzuki game, ergo, wanting a new Shenmue game is akin to wanting a new Yu Suzuki game. Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying and would also have liked to have seen more time spent developing the story, but that's just me. Some people love Shenmue for the combat, while others enjoy playing around with all of the mini-games or marveling at all of the innovative mechanics and ideas. Shenmue means different things to different people, so trying to find the right balance between all that while also appealing to new players must have been very difficult. I'm sure he did what he thought was best.
It's definitely difficult but there's a big difference between what people genuinely love about Shenmue, the things that Shenmue has become known for and Suzuki's ultimate vision for the series. S3 contains a lot of what Shenmue has become known for over the years but very little in terms of a "grand vision". Any time Suzuki talks about the game, he mentions all the story content he has, all the installments he needs to tell it, and all the characters yet to be introduced and I don't find that reflected in the final product at all. The tone is all over the place.
 
It's extremely easy for a game to get away from you and development time that seems like forever (S3 had approx 4 years) absolutely flies by. Having been through a similarly troubled project, I have to say that most of these issues come down to poor planning and scope/feature creep. Your hands are often tied based on split second decisions made early on that you never would have made as the project develops.
Agreed, although it can be very difficult to plan with an ever-changing budget, especially when you're also trying to please 70k+ fans who all like the franchise for different reasons.
Having gone through this a few times, publishers always recoup their investment before any kind of rev share, which is why I don't really see how it can be said to have "broke even" without everyone making their investment back. Of course merely making your money back is still considered a failure, and it's possible that investors backed the project based on projected revenue but then that opens up a whole other can of worms. Suffice to say that any investor pursuing this is going to have a lot of say in the direction of the project.
By "broke even", I merely meant that Shenmue 3 had recouped its budget (ie, it generated as much money through sales and the Epic deal as was spent on its development). That doesn't necessarily mean that the money generated was split evenly among all of the investors.
DS would not view the KS money as "budget" but rather sales, so I would be shocked if the rev split was anything less than 70/30 in their favor unless they grossly overestimated the potential sales. I'm not sure how the ~$20M pie was split but you're right that it's definitely possible that YSNet lost money. It's clear that DS were worried about the project, they were announced as publisher in 2017 and the Epic deal was announced in 2019 (which was pretty close to the game's launch window).
You're right. 50/50 is perhaps a little unrealistic given the risk that DS was taking on. Either way, though, it still feels as though YS Net should have come away with a fairly significant sum of money given the circumstances. The fact that the series is once again in limbo seems to suggest that this wasn't the case.
It's definitely difficult but there's a big difference between what people genuinely love about Shenmue, the things that Shenmue has become known for and Suzuki's ultimate vision for the series. S3 contains a lot of what Shenmue has become known for over the years but very little in terms of a "grand vision". Any time Suzuki talks about the game, he mentions all the story content he has, all the installments he needs to tell it, and all the characters yet to be introduced and I don't find that reflected in the final product at all. The tone is all over the place.
It always felt to me as though Suzuki sees the Shenmue story as a vehicle with which to explore some of his weird and whacky ideas. Sure, he talks about it a lot when asked directly or when trying to justify why he wants to make more games, but actions speak a lot louder than words. He could have wrapped things up in a single game had he really wanted to or at the very least moved things along at a much brisker pace. The fact that he didn't, and instead opted to spend time and resources developing chicken-chasing mini-games and chobu chan fighting would seem to suggest that he deems these elements to be just as important as the story; if not more so. Again, though, I don't begrudge him this, because I'm sure that there are some fans who are really into that kind of thing. The same goes for combat. And graphics. And just about everything else that went into Shenmue 3.
 
Agreed, although it can be very difficult to plan with an ever-changing budget, especially when you're also trying to please 70k+ fans who all like the franchise for different reasons.
How ever changing was the budget though? Was it not (reasonably) locked in by 2017 with DS as publisher?
By "broke even", I merely meant that Shenmue 3 had recouped its budget (ie, it generated as much money through sales and the Epic deal as was spent on its development). That doesn't necessarily mean that the money generated was split evenly among all of the investors.
This is true if the other investors were somehow exempt from the Epic deal. That does not paint DS or YS Net in a very good light, however.
Either way, though, it still feels as though YS Net should have come away with a fairly significant sum of money given the circumstances.
What makes you say that? If all the KS money went to development and all the additional budget funded development and the project basically broke even, then YS Net either lost money or broke even. The only way they came out with a significant sum of money is if they didn't spend all their budget on development and/or if the game was profitable (which doesn't seem to be the case).
It always felt to me as though Suzuki sees the Shenmue story as a vehicle with which to explore some of his weird and whacky ideas. Sure, he talks about it a lot when asked directly or when trying to justify why he wants to make more games, but actions speak a lot louder than words. He could have wrapped things up in a single game had he really wanted to or at the very least moved things along at a much brisker pace. The fact that he didn't, and instead opted to spend time and resources developing chicken-chasing mini-games and chobu chan fighting would seem to suggest that he deems these elements to be just as important as the story; if not more so.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, this does not speak very highly of Suzuki if true. He sold the S3 KS on the back of the story. He could have done a new IP or a spiritual successor if he just wanted to explore different concepts. Yes it's true that different people want different things from the series but the game literally ends with "the story goes on...", if you're suggesting that he doesn't really care about telling that story, that's very close to how people like Jim Sterling would deride Suzuki.

If I had to guess, S3 has a lot of superfluous stuff because 1. that's how Shenmue is widely perceived and S3 appears to have been designed backwards from that and 2. S3's environments and story were locked down relatively early at a lower budget, so the increased budget allowed them to expand the existing areas and add polish, but not meaningful content.
Again, though, I don't begrudge him this, because I'm sure that there are some fans who are really into that kind of thing.
Obviously I'm far less forgiving of this but I would simply say that, after playing S1 and S2, I believe most people would be under the impression that Shenmue was about a revenge seeking martial artist learning martial arts who happened to exist in a world with arcade games, slot machines etc. Not the other way around.
 
And if we're insisting on fully voiced NPCs then Shenmue needs a new way of handling dialogue and fewer interactive NPCs.
Ready for getting your mind blown? I'll dig a Shenmue with Phantomilian voiceover.

There are no solutions in game development, only tradeoffs (unless you're Rockstar in which case the solution is money). What was present as final dialogue in S3 is unacceptable in a modern game.
I bet Yu knows that and precisely he don't want (at least drastics) tradeoff.
Even if it that means Shenmue's conclusion never seeing the light of day.
Many can see that as if he gave up but others like myself sees it as commited to his own unadultered vision. Also I like that kind of stubborn mindset.

But that being said if Yu says that he's going for a S4 with mandatory and unavoidable tradeoffs, I could go with ease of mind getting absolutely all the fan-service scrapped. Slots, pachinkos, capsuletoys, races... All gone. Those are present, merry me. But at the end of the day, the progression of Ryo's path through martial arts, detective play and a few side tasks are the foundations for me.
 
How ever changing was the budget though? Was it not (reasonably) locked in by 2017 with DS as publisher?
When the Kickstarter first went live they had no idea how much it would raise. Then came the Slacker Backer campaign. Then a publisher. Then several delays (which presumably increased the budget). Had Suzuki known he’d have $20m (or whatever the final budget ended up being) and right from the get-go, I expect that we’d have ended up with a very different game.
This is true if the other investors were somehow exempt from the Epic deal. That does not paint DS or YS Net in a very good light, however.
Not sure what this has to do with the Epic deal. In all likelihood, DS just took a much larger share of the revenue than YS Net did; as per whatever deal was struck when they signed on as publisher.
What makes you say that? If all the KS money went to development and all the additional budget funded development and the project basically broke even, then YS Net either lost money or broke even. The only way they came out with a significant sum of money is if they didn't spend all their budget on development and/or if the game was profitable (which doesn't seem to be the case).
YS Net started development with $7.2m (plus whatever they got from Sony and Cedric). If they’d broken even, they’d have ended the project with that amount of money as well (unless you think that all of the money generated through sales and the Epic deal went to Deep Silver?).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, this does not speak very highly of Suzuki if true. He sold the S3 KS on the back of the story. He could have done a new IP or a spiritual successor if he just wanted to explore different concepts. Yes it's true that different people want different things from the series but the game literally ends with "the story goes on...", if you're suggesting that he doesn't really care about telling that story, that's very close to how people like Jim Sterling would deride Suzuki.
That’s not what I said at all. However, I do think it’s fairly obvious that the story isn’t his primary focus. I mean, if he just wanted to finish the story, he could have released a novelization years ago and been done with it. He wants to make innovative video games, and the continuation of the Shenmue series gives him a means to do that. Do you honestly think he could have gotten $20m for a new IP?
If I had to guess, S3 has a lot of superfluous stuff because 1. that's how Shenmue is widely perceived and S3 appears to have been designed backwards from that and 2. S3's environments and story were locked down relatively early at a lower budget, so the increased budget allowed them to expand the existing areas and add polish, but not meaningful content.
You may be right about this to a certain degree, which I think goes back to my earlier point about how having a fluid budget negatively impacted the development of Shenmue 3.
Obviously I'm far less forgiving of this but I would simply say that, after playing S1 and S2, I believe most people would be under the impression that Shenmue was about a revenge seeking martial artist learning martial arts who happened to exist in a world with arcade games, slot machines etc. Not the other way around.
Revenge stories like Shenmue’s are a dime a dozen; at least when it comes to what’s presented to players in the first game. Were it not for all of the extra bells and whistles, I doubt too many people would have stuck around to experience it; let alone been left craving a conclusion to it several decades later.

Sure, at this point, some people just want to know how the story ends, and I completely get that, but to many fans, all of the little details and additional world-building are a big part of the Shenmue experience. Strip that away, and you may as well just be reading the novelization.
 
Had Suzuki known he’d have $20m (or whatever the final budget ended up being) and right from the get-go, I expect that we’d have ended up with a very different game.
This is almost certainly true but who's to say in what ways it would be different?
Not sure what this has to do with the Epic deal. In all likelihood, DS just took a much larger share of the revenue than YS Net did; as per whatever deal was struck when they signed on as publisher.
Because of what you said about the Epic deal being the reason the game was able to "break even" in the first place. If not all the investors made their money back then obviously the Epic deal represented a sizeable chunk of change.
YS Net started development with $7.2m (plus whatever they got from Sony and Cedric). If they’d broken even, they’d have ended the project with that amount of money as well (unless you think that all of the money generated through sales and the Epic deal went to Deep Silver?).
Sorry, I should clarify. For YS Net to "break even", I mean that places them at $0 (basically it's the point at which their investors have made their money back and the rev split begins), because YS Net is the developer and they raised $7M, there is no expectation that they make that money back since technically with KS, they made their money first.
That’s not what I said at all. However, I do think it’s fairly obvious that the story isn’t his primary focus. I mean, if he just wanted to finish the story, he could have released a novelization years ago and been done with it. He wants to make innovative video games, and the continuation of the Shenmue series gives him a means to do that.
I know what you mean by this but what I'm pointing out is that the same logic can be used to paint Suzuki as a kind of con man (Jim Sterling all but tiptoes up to this line). The fact remains that, regardless of whatever Suzuki wants to do with Shenmue, he insists on selling it as an epic martial arts story that requires several multimillion dollar games to properly tell. Ever since the first Project Berkley trailer, every single Shenmue trailer has been basically the same: epic music, action packed, usually showing off the QTEs, lots of martial arts, and some dramatic sequences. If he wants to make some slow paced slice of life minigame simulator, this is how those games look in trailers:
Do you honestly think he could have gotten $20m for a new IP?
No, and the only reason he got it for S3 is because people wanted to see the Shenmue story continue, which is why he began the campaign by saying "Shenmue's story was left incomplete...". He did not sell it on the back of creating something new and innovative, or minigames, or anything else (and he continues this trend when talking about sequels to this day).
Revenge stories like Shenmue’s are a dime a dozen; at least when it comes to what’s presented to players in the first game. Were it not for all of the extra bells and whistles, I doubt too many people would have stuck around to experience it; let alone been left craving a conclusion to it several decades later.

Sure, at this point, some people just want to know how the story ends, and I completely get that, but to many fans, all of the little details and additional world-building are a big part of the Shenmue experience. Strip that away, and you may as well just be reading the novelization.
What makes Shenmue's world interesting is the story. The worldbuilding are all the cool side characters, NPCs that teach you moves, little touches like the Wude and Chawan signs, the mystery behind the murder of Sunming, the mysticism of the mirrors and Shenhua; that's what gives Shenmue's world its flavor and history, what makes it feel lived in and real. You can strip away Lucky Hit and still be left with a compelling game; you can't do the reverse. And the story is the gameplay, I completely reject the notion that playing through S2 and ignoring all the minigames is the same thing as reading a novel: it's not.
 
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Not at all. While Shenmue certainly has a lot in common with PC point and click adventure games, it has very little in common with Telltale's formula. TT games are designed first and foremost to give the illusion of choice; you're constantly presented with multiple choice options and being told that characters are "remembering" your choices--Shenmue doesn't lend itself to that at all and is extremely linear.

Shenmue should play like an RPG, which is essentially what it is. It should have a focus on combat (which is why I favor 2D, because it's essentially fighting game mechanics and 2D is more cost effective), learning moves, interacting with characters, and exploring the environment. It should focus less on rendering everything in obsessive detail and limit superfluous content. If you adopted my "episodic" model and wanted to include a levelling system, you could even cap Ryo's level for each chapter. I don't really see anything in Shenmue's design that necessitates 3D and I think working backward from that assumption will only leave the series in its perpetual state of being needlessly expensive.

Shenmue is a story first, so that should always be the priority. S1 and 2 have hours and hours of cutscenes, most of the "gameplay" is walking around pressing A on things and ridiculously complex combat for how little its used.

A bunch of expensively rendered set dressing that isn't conducive to exploration is unsustainable in this day and age. Part of Shenmue's "formula" necessitates having huge detailed 3D environments with fully voiced NPCs that the player never needs to interact with and it also has almost no "side quests" to help facilitate that exploration. Shenmue's world is one of its biggest strengths but if you think that it can only be that way with a crazy expensive budget then you don't actually like Shenmue's world; you like expensive tech demos.
Are you saying that you didn’t enjoy the King of Bailu mini game?
 
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