Does the lack of Shenmue 4 change your opinion of Shenmue 3?

I’m tempted to give you $20M right now just to see how great a Shenmue 4 you could make.
It's not my story to tell, but I can say with certainty that $20M is more than enough to make a better S3 than we got, that's for sure.
You’d start in Suzhou
I'd start at the Cliff Temple, where we're headed at the end of S3. I'd skip past the part where we spend 10 hours grinding dishwashing minigames to make $10,000 to learn a move that will let Ryo defeat the leader of the evil Purple Monkey gang.
You’d start in Suzhou and take 5 steps and a cutscene would play, then another 5 steps and another cutscene would play and so on. 500 steps and 100 cutscenes later the credits would roll on your “narrative epic” and we’d be complaining how your S4 is just a walking sim with zero gameplay.
Ah yes, the only 2 options in the minds of Shenmue fans: either S3's protracted minigame nonsense or a walking sim with cutscenes. No other games exist. The things that are interesting about Shenmue, the things that set it apart, are its focus on martial arts (great fighting engine, huge variety of moves, an emphasis on the actual training), and its story (a classic revenge narrative with a much deeper mystical adventure/treasure hunt story set all across China grounded in realism). The least interesting things about it are the things that tons of other games do way better ("open world" towns which are just RPG towns with nothing to do, shallow minigames to waste time, and asking the same question to every random NPC with terrible voice acting and dialogue).

What's the "gameplay" that's so great in S3?
 
Did any street NPCs have 1 iota of this personality in Shenmue 2? Walk around Kowloon in Shenmue 2 the street vendors don’t even have food at their stalls… theyre just set dressing meant to run past without a second thought.
I don’t generally disagree with this post, just wanted to say that there are some beautiful weirdos around as NPCs in Kowloon, and Hong Kong. I’m thinking of the Madam of the tea garden, and a vague recollection of some NPC who’s obsessed with her boyfriend. The hard-nosed crate moving boss. I think there might actually be more interesting ‘mob’ NPCs in Kowloon than Hong Kong.

Suzuki had all of Niaowu to build her/Li Feng up and the name Niao Sun is never even mentioned. So no, adding another location does not fix that.
Like Niao Sun, Boba Fett is never addressed by name outside of the credits in episode 5. I guess even the modern day bible can’t properly set up a character, and no one should like Boba Fett.
 
It's not my story to tell, but I can say with certainty that $20M is more than enough to make a better S3 than we got, that's for sure.

I'd start at the Cliff Temple, where we're headed at the end of S3. I'd skip past the part where we spend 10 hours grinding dishwashing minigames to make $10,000 to learn a move that will let Ryo defeat the leader of the evil Purple Monkey gang.

Ah yes, the only 2 options in the minds of Shenmue fans: either S3's protracted minigame nonsense or a walking sim with cutscenes. No other games exist. The things that are interesting about Shenmue, the things that set it apart, are its focus on martial arts (great fighting engine, huge variety of moves, an emphasis on the actual training), and its story (a classic revenge narrative with a much deeper mystical adventure/treasure hunt story set all across China grounded in realism). The least interesting things about it are the things that tons of other games do way better ("open world" towns which are just RPG towns with nothing to do, shallow minigames to waste time, and asking the same question to every random NPC with terrible voice acting and dialogue).

What's the "gameplay" that's so great in S3?
So you’d go straight to the cliff temple and skip Suzhou entirely?

The real life cliff temple is small area so on S4 the only thing that can really happen there are a lot of cutscenes so it fits perfectly into your walking sim.

Suzhou on the other hand is Venice of China! You’d want to miss out on exploring this gorgeous area? Oh yeah you blew your $20M on cutscenes so there’s not enough money left over to make a rich open word that you can explore.

Besides it’s better to start at Suzhou and have a nice build up to a narrative heavy cliff temple finale section. You beat (spank) the purple monkeys in Suzhou and which leads to an epic confrontation with Niao Sun and Lan Di at the cliff temple. You would probably wouldn’t need a job dishwashing either to raise the funds to beat the monkeys you’d likely get a job as a gondola captain ferrying visitors along Suzhou… wouldn’t that be cool?

Yes part of what makes Shenmue great is the training and there’s TONS of training in S3. In fact training is just a disconnected optional side thing in S1 and 2 but is actually required in S3 which makes narrative sense.

I’d argue that the Shenmue story without explorable worlds would suck. And Shenmue (especially 3) has great towns filled with memorable NPCs. Modern games like FF16 that I’m playing just have fetch quest markers and are just perfunctory nonsense. I remember my sister watching me play Spider man 2 and during a side quest when you have to find this woman’s grandpa I had to tell her that I couldn’t just ask NPCs because in this game they are just useless set dressing unlike S3 where you can talk to everyone. You just follow the quest marker…

S3 gameplay was way better than S1 and 2… better controls actual purposes to every shop. Actually purpose for food actually purpose to make money actually needed to train etc. Not only more mini games in S3 but also more side quests than S1 or S2.

The golden goose girl getting the haircut, the fortune teller using you as a ginnea pig leading to a fight… finding the guy who didn’t pay his hotel bill…side quests that S1 or S2 never had that fills out the world with character.
 
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Like Niao Sun, Boba Fett is never addressed by name outside of the credits in episode 5. I guess even the modern day bible can’t properly set up a character, and no one should like Boba Fett.
Boba Fett is, generously, a tertiary character in Star Wars, not one of the primary antagonists. And his unceremonious "demise" in Return of the Jedi was indeed something that fans hated. Lan Di is named within seconds of encountering him in the opening cutscene (we actually don't know if she's referred to as Niao Sun or Yan Di, but that might give us possible insight into the CYM organization and we can't have that cuz "pacing").
So you’d go straight to the cliff temple and skip Suzhou entirely?

The real life cliff temple is small area so on S4 the only thing that can really happen there are a lot of cutscenes so it fits perfectly into your walking sim.

Suzhou on the other hand is Venice of China! You’d want to miss out on exploring this gorgeous area? Oh yeah you blew your $20M on cutscenes so there’s not enough money left over to make a rich open word that you can explore.
Suzhou was the basis for Niaowu (presumably it was fictionalized to make more sense geographically) and the reason I would start at the Cliff Temple is because that's where our heroes are going at the end of S3.
The real life cliff temple is small area so on S4 the only thing that can really happen there are a lot of cutscenes so it fits perfectly into your walking sim.
Small areas where a lot of stuff happens should be tattooed to Suzuki's forehead if he ever gets to make S4.
Besides it’s better to start at Suzhou and have a nice build up to a narrative heavy cliff temple finale section. You beat (spank) the purple monkeys in Suzhou and which leads to an epic confrontation with Niao Sun and Lan Di at the cliff temple. You would probably wouldn’t need a job dishwashing either to raise the funds to beat the monkeys you’d likely get a job as a gondola captain ferrying visitors along Suzhou… wouldn’t that be cool?

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Yes part of what makes Shenmue great is the training and there’s TONS of training in S3.
There isn't, there's tons of optional grinding minigames to level up stats in S3, which is completely different to how training is handled in S1-2.
In fact training is just a disconnected optional side thing in S1 and 2 but is actually required in S3 which makes narrative sense.
It absolutely is not, you should play those games again. I don't recall Xiuying being a disconnected optional side thing.
Modern games like FF16 that I’m playing just have fetch quest markers and are just perfunctory nonsense.
I'm playing it right now too! What are the odds??
I remember my sister watching me play Spider man 2 and during a side quest when you have to find this woman’s grandpa I had to tell her that I couldn’t just ask NPCs because in this game they are just useless set dressing unlike S3 where you can talk to everyone. You just follow the quest marker…
Yes games have to focus on what's important to their goals. Although Spidey can wave at NPCs, the fact that you can't interact with everyone in a game that costs $300M should tell you a lot about the wisdom of trying to do it for $20M...
S3 gameplay was way better than S1 and 2… better controls actual purposes to every shop. Actually purpose for food actually purpose to make money actually needed to train etc. Not only more mini games in S3 but also more side quests than S1 or S2.
This is an argument for how the minigames/world have been integrated into the existing gameplay systems, not for how that gameplay is better. Particularly since it comes at the cost of how those things were achieved before (ie: now instead of learning moves from cool characters, you get them from collecting a bunch of capsule toys).
 
Boba Fett is, generously, a tertiary character in Star Wars, not one of the primary antagonists. And his unceremonious "demise" in Return of the Jedi was indeed something that fans hated. Lan Di is named within seconds of encountering him in the opening cutscene (we actually don't know if she's referred to as Niao Sun or Yan Di.
They’re both secondary antagonists within their respective works.

We do know. Each leader has two pseudonyms. “Yan Di” (炎帝) corresponds to “Lan Di,” (藍帝) and is more like their organizational titles (‘emperor of flame/red’ vs ‘emperor of the indigo plant/blue’). “Niao Sun” (鳥隼) corresponds to Lan Di’s alternate pseudonym ‘Sou Ryu’ (蒼龍—I don’t recall the Chinese pronunciation) which is more of their pseudonyms within the organization (‘falcon bird’ vs ‘azure dragon’). These details don’t really require explanation in Japanese because it’s apparent from the terminology. You would need a translation that takes into account the cultural differences to get these more plainly.
 
They’re both secondary antagonists within their respective works.
Boba Fett is a bounty hunter hired by Jabba the Hutt (an actual secondary antagonist) to retreive Han Solo. Fans liked him because he looked cool so they expanded his character 20 years later. Pedantry aside, do you expect Niao Sun to be as consequential to the overall story of Shenmue as Boba Fett?
We do know. Each leader has two pseudonyms.
This is never stated in game in the same way that Boba Fett is never named in the Empire Strikes Back. So we don't know this yet, although Suzuki stating plainly that he intends for 4 leaders (plus 2 more) basically confirms it.
“Yan Di” (炎帝) corresponds to “Lan Di,” (藍帝) and is more like their organizational titles (‘emperor of flame/red’ vs ‘emperor of the indigo plant/blue’). “Niao Sun” (鳥隼) corresponds to Lan Di’s alternate pseudonym ‘Sou Ryu’ (蒼龍—I don’t recall the Chinese pronunciation) which is more of their pseudonyms within the organization (‘falcon bird’ vs ‘azure dragon’). These details don’t really require explanation in Japanese because it’s apparent from the terminology. You would need a translation that takes into account the cultural differences to get these more plainly.
I can see why it might be problematic to use Yan Di and Lan Di in English, but it would be nice to have clarification. I don't understand why it's not in the game, particularly for people who are unfamiliar with the series outside the games.
 
Super Eyepatch Wolf should get a tattoo branded on his ass saying “I’m the douchbag who publically urinated on Shenmue 3 to a million people and helped kill the franchise.”
 
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Boba Fett is a bounty hunter hired by Jabba the Hutt (an actual secondary antagonist) to retreive Han Solo. Fans liked him because he looked cool so they expanded his character 20 years later. Pedantry aside, do you expect Niao Sun to be as consequential to the overall story of Shenmue as Boba Fett?
Secondary in terms of effect to the plot, not in terms of roles within a character relationship tree. Even if there's some degree of separation, neither is as meaningful to the plot as the primary antagonist. I'm confident Niao Sun will not be as consequential to the plot as Lan Di. I don't anticipate Tentei being as consequential as Lan Di, either, in the same way Palpatine isn't as consequential as Darth Vader.
That's all really beside the point, though. You insinuated that Niao Sun was a poorly conceived character because she's not named by her CYM aliases within the game (only in the credits), and this can't be overcome later on. The same logic should hold true for Boba Fett, then. People who like Boba Fett's later iteration necessarily can not, because he wasn't referred to by name in his initial appearance outside of the credit roll.

This is never stated in game in the same way that Boba Fett is never named in the Empire Strikes Back. So we don't know this yet, although Suzuki stating plainly that he intends for 4 leaders (plus 2 more) basically confirms it.
Bruv, games and movies don't exist in a vacuum. People knew who Boba Fett was before his appearance in the movies because of the Christmas special appearance, and other promotional materials around the franchise.
 
3.1 million, actually.

Surely you'd agree that Yu Suzuki shares in some of that blame considering he's the one who supplied SEPW with all the material?
Super Eye Patch Wolf had no material. He is not a creator like Yu Suzuki.

If SEPW disappeared forever the world would not mourn him since what he did had no value and he contributed nothing to the culture. All he did was post click baity videos bashing the creations of other people.
 
I'm confident Niao Sun will not be as consequential to the plot as Lan Di. I don't anticipate Tentei being as consequential as Lan Di, either, in the same way Palpatine isn't as consequential as Darth Vader.
Right, but I would venture to guess that Niao Sun will err much closer to a Palpatine or a Grand Moff Tarkin than a Boba Fett. I mean, she has the Phoenix Mirror so unless she just dies in the next scene she's in, that's already more than what Boba Fett does in the orig trig.
You insinuated that Niao Sun was a poorly conceived character because she's not named by her CYM aliases within the game (only in the credits), and this can't be overcome later on.
I did not insinuate that at all. I said that the build up to her reveal would not have been helped by the addition of Baisha, since that build up was supposed to be happening in Niaowu. I also didn't say that she's a poorly conceived character because she simply doesn't have much of a character to discern and her lack of a name is just an easy shorthand for all that lack. There is no reason that she couldn't be a wonderful villain later on, but her introduction to the story is a missed opportunity.
Bruv, games and movies don't exist in a vacuum. People knew who Boba Fett was before his appearance in the movies because of the Christmas special appearance, and other promotional materials around the franchise.
Sure, some super fans knew who he was but are you really going to argue that the vast majority of people weren’t introduced to Boba Fett in Empire? Or that we should be holding the Holiday Special or Comics as equal weight as the movies?
Super Eye Patch Wolf had no material.
I meant the material Suzuki provided him in the form of S3.
 
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Right, but I would venture to guess that Niao Sun will err much closer to a Palpatine or a Grand Moff Tarkin than a Boba Fett. I mean, she has the Phoenix Mirror so unless she just dies in the next scene she's in, that's already more than what Boba Fett does in the orig trig.

I did not insinuate that at all. I said that the build up to her reveal would not have been helped by the addition of Baisha, since that build up was supposed to be happening in Niaowu. I also didn't say that she's a poorly conceived character because she simply doesn't have much of a character to discern and her lack of a name is just an easy shorthand for all that lack. There is no reason that she couldn't be a wonderful villain later on, but her introduction to the story is a missed opportunity.

Sure, some super fans knew who he was but are you really going to argue that the vast majority of people were introduced to Boba Fett in Empire? Or that we should be holding the Holiday Special or Comics as equal weight as the movies?

I meant the material Suzuki provided him in the form of S3.
Again SEPW has no material. His video has zero value.

With all this Star Wars talk I’m gonna say with 1000% certainty that you hated the prequel trilogy just as much as you hate S3.
 
Again SEPW has no material. His video has zero value.
He illustrates almost everything that’s wrong with S3 using clear examples from the game. If Suzuki didn’t supply him with such ample material, he wouldn’t have been able to make the video.
With all this Star Wars talk I’m gonna say with 1000% certainty that you hated the prequel trilogy just as much as you hate S3.
Not as much as I hate S3 but what? Is not like the prequels some kind of hot take now?
 
He illustrates almost everything that’s wrong with S3 using clear examples from the game. If Suzuki didn’t supply him with such ample material, he wouldn’t have been able to make the video.

Not as much as I hate S3 but what? Is not like the prequels some kind of hot take now?
The video contained zero content was just a man-baby having a tantrum because he didn’t like a game.

Zero to say, zero material, zero value made by a person with zero worth to society.

YS on the other hand is creator that made something that actually contributes to the world.

When YS retires the world will have lost something. When SEPW calls it quits some new worthless complainer will replace him on YouTube and the world will not care.

Regarding the prequels, you probably hated them because they weren’t as good as the OT in your opinion. And now we’re stuck with the infinitely inferior Sequel Trilogy because some obnoxious “fans” kept complaining about the prequels.

People who grew up with the prequels love them which is why there is a new climate of respect and admiration for the prequels today.

The same might be true about S3, how many new Shenmue fans loved 1 and 2 but hated 3? Only the old curmudgeons like us who waited 20 years for 3 which couldn’t possibly live up to those expectations.
 
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The video contained zero content was just a man-baby having a tantrum because he didn’t like a game.
Is that not what you're doing complaining about the review?
Zero to say, zero material, zero value
I don't understand how you can possibly say that about a 50 minute video that covers the entire game from the perspective of a lifelong fan.
Regarding the prequels, you probably hated them because they weren’t as good as the OT in your opinion
They're not as good. Like Shenmue 2, The Empire Strikes Back being considered the best one is about as close to consensus as it's possible to get within a fandom.
And now we’re stuck with the infinitely inferior Sequel Trilogy because some obnoxious “fans” kept complaining about the prequels.
No, we got that because George Lucas sold the IP. After he helped make a terrible Indiana Jones movie first.
People who grew up with the prequels love them which is why there is a new climate of respect and admiration for the prequels today.
I'm old enough to have watched all the prequels in theaters; they were bad then and they're bad now (I tend to think AotC is the best one, but that's not saying much). When they were coming out, we were in the middle of the Lord of the Rings craze, which are actual good movies that people love.

I'll say this about the prequels/sequels: I think the sequels are unquestionably better made from a technical perspective (ie: cinematography, effects work, lighting etc.) but I can appreciate that the prequels were at least trying to be about something. The sequels are about nothing other than continuing the franchise (I mean, so are the prequels but they do a better job of hiding it). That being said, both resulted in excellent spin off content (The Clone Wars, Mandalorian S1, Andor) that are way better than the movies that inspired them. On the whole, neither trilogy should have been made and Star Wars should have been allowed to exist as the orig trig and the expanded universe, which Disney is essentially just redoing at this point.

To bring this back around to Shenmue, I view S3 as the worst of both worlds: it's inferior from a "technical" perspective (bad writing, storytelling, production value etc.) and it's also not about anything other than "member Shenmue?". And, unlike Star Wars, S3 is a direct continuation of the storyline (it's essentially like getting Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi 20 years late).
The same might be true about S3, how many new Shenmue fans loved 1 and 2 but hated 3? Only the old curmudgeons like us who waited 20 years for 3 which couldn’t possibly live up to those expectations.
A lot of people hate S3. In my opinion it's one of the worst modern games I've ever played and I knew as I was playing it that this was it for the series. It has nothing to do with expectations; I was actually expecting it to be worse in most respects (it's graphically much better than I expected, it's highly polished, and it runs well) but I'm not going to sit here and pretend I don't know how to tell the difference between a good story and a bad story. Same thing is true of Star Wars.
 
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