Does the lack of Shenmue 4 change your opinion of Shenmue 3?

[iknifaugood]

Now that it's been officially confirmed that Shenmue 4 isn't being worked on, does that change your opinion of Shenmue 3? Are you less forgiving of its shortcomings or more critical of some of the decisions that were made? And/or does this make you more sympathetic toward Suzuki?

 

[SPG]

Nah, I’ve played it through twice and thoroughly enjoyed both times. I’m not saying it’s better than S2 by any means, but I’m on my third playthrough of the three games now, currently airing out the books and looking for the Wulinshu, but I honestly look forward to getting to Niaowu.

It has its issues, which have been done to death at this point, but I went into the game on my first playthrough knowing nothing of what was expected nor anything about the kickstarter beforehand, and I had zero issue with it, and my position remains the same. Knowing what I know now I can see how people may have problems, but to me it sets up S4 perfectly, even if it’s not in development, it lines it up wonderfully.

Did YS make a mistake making S3 “for the fans” and harm the series… I don’t know. I’m a fan. I enjoyed it. That’s all I can really say. But turn that on its head, he intended to make a game that played the same way the first two did (combat excluded, which didn’t bother me personally) and he succeeded. He deliberately tried to make Air Twister an old fashioned shooter game, he succeeded. I have no reason to doubt him or his decisions really, I like what he does. I don’t think he fucked anything up with Shenmue 3 being as it is, it’s as good as it was going to be all things considered. People were always going to moan - Shenmue 1 and 2 are niche enough to people these days anyway.

Do I feel more sympathetic towards him? Yes, a man at the top of his field for years, shaped a lot of modern gaming, who obviously wants to finish Shenmue, which he seemingly views as his life’s work. I may well be proven wrong but I still think it’ll happen.

 

[iknifaugood]

Knowing what I know now I can see how people may have problems, but to me it sets up S4 perfectly, even if it’s not in development, it lines it up wonderfully.

Even though Suzuki said the next location is Suzhou? Not trying it as any sort of gotcha, but what about S3 leads you to think that has been perfectly set up? Or the emperor being 4 years old when he commissioned the mirrors? It's possible that these things are intentional but I personally don't see how S3 perfectly sets anything up, especially since iirc the ending was fundamentally altered during development.

 

[Vivi-gamer]

It's not like the series was meant to end with 3 anyway, nor has it. I've still only played the game once but I still go back to it just to scout the areas from time to time. I genuinely did enjoy the game, graphically it actually looks really nice -especially the environments. The problem visually is the animations, which goes for combat too.

I think the biggest problem for me is the lack of ambition it has with it's storytelling. There was a lot more to be told than we got. Even moments like in Bailu Village where you meet the master who trained with Iwao... That should have been a much bigger deal and yet very little was brought to the surface. Same with the Idea of Ryo's mother, who is hinted to have been there but little was mentioned. I think the other problem is Ryo never felt like he grew as a character unlike in Shen2. I would even argue the story within Niaowu is paper thin and had little to offer more than we had already seen in Bailu Village. The Niao Sun twist fell flat but I will still say I loved the confrontation with Lan Di - Not a single punch! They could have quite easily made it a level fight but that would have belittled Lan Di & I'm grateful for how that encounter took place as a part of the series whole.

Of course despite being a KickStarter then backedby companies it's clear that concessions were made - The lack of Baisha alone is evident of that. Which is a shame as I bet a lot of the story we're all craving was planned. As I have said with Shen4 they need to pick up the pace and have it focused on introducing the other Chi You Men members.

I've also been thinking a lot today about how they toned down the spiritual aspects in Shen3... I get it as the Shen2 ending was very surreal It will need to lean into that side by the end of Shen4. I try not to watch the Shenmue Online trailer but I want something earth shattering like that to happen - I don't think I would be settled with the Mirror's being linked to just treasure alone, it's been built up too much through Shenhua's speech or MasterChens words within Warehouse No.8.

But to keep on track with Shen 3, It's gameplay is pretty solid. I liked the combat especially having the shoulder button command shortcuts. The environments were detailed and there was enough things to do which is impressive considering the budget.

 

[Seaman]

The origin of the mirrors is treated as a legend. But in the case of really being depicted as the accurate historical figure - which stays unconfirmed - the answer is: a monarch who gets the throne as a minor is under a regency. This regency make the decitions and rules de facto even while the monarch stills sanction those actions as a mere protocol. The announcements were made like "The King has decided..." Instead of "The regency has decided..." because that was considered against the monarch figure and to god/the gods. Lets not forget that Kings, Emperors, Pharaons etc were designated "by divine right". But is not like the people did leave a 4 year old kid ruling the nation politics and relationships with other kingdoms.
TL;DR the emperor regency comisioned the mirrors.

 

[SPG]

Even though Suzuki said the next location is Suzhou? Not trying it as any sort of gotcha, but what about S3 leads you to think that has been perfectly set up? Or the emperor being 4 years old when he commissioned the mirrors? It's possible that these things are intentional but I personally don't see how S3 perfectly sets anything up, especially since iirc the ending was fundamentally altered during development.

Ha, that’s fair enough with the 4 year old emperor, can’t argue there.

Edit: maybe Seaman did argue the case just there, haha…

By setting it up I mean how it (albeit very quickly) sets up the CYM conflict which surely is the focus of the fourth game and the importance of keeping the mirrors out of their hands. I would say Suzhou would be as good a place as any to exhibit it.

In regard to the ending, I’ve always thought about it being the execution that was flawed rather than the basic story point of Ryo losing the mirror - that is, I assumed the ending of S3 was always going to be Ryo losing the Phoenix Mirror, regardless of how it was portrayed.

Feel free to gotcha me at any point though, I might’ve liked the games for 25 years but I’ve only been INTO em for the last three so I’m happy to be educated!

 

[iknifaugood]

The origin of the mirrors is treated as a legend. But in the case of really being depicted as the accurate historical figure - which stays unconfirmed - the answer is: a monarch who gets the throne as a minor is under a regency. This regency make the decitions and rules de facto even while the monarch stills sanction those actions as a mere protocol. The announcements were made like "The King has decided..." Instead of "The regency has decided..." because that was considered against the monarch figure and to god/the gods. Lets not forget that Kings, Emperors, Pharaons etc were designated "by divine right". But is not like the people did leave a 4 year old kid ruling the nation politics and relationships with other kingdoms.
TL;DR the emperor regency comisioned the mirrors.

This is possible but don't you think someone would have/should have mentioned that in S3? I mean you're literally talking to people who were alive at the time and all anyone does is specifically mention the emperor and empress. Like I said, it could all be intentional but the fact that none of this has been addressed in the game at all makes me doubt how much is being set up. Suzuki didn't really offer any clarity except to say he doesn't remember the age of the emperor but the dates were all researched, so I guess we can assume it's intentional?

I try not to watch the Shenmue Online trailer but I want something earth shattering like that to happen - I don't think I would be settled with the Mirror's being linked to just treasure alone, it's been built up too much through Shenhua's speech or MasterChens words within Warehouse No.8.

Totally agreed. I don't really see where he's going by making all this stuff seem super ancient and apocalyptic only to be like nah, it's actually not that interesting. If anything it would have made sense to do the opposite, start out by suggesting the mirrors r only a hundred years old and then gradually find out that this "destiny" stretches back thousands of years.

 

[iknifaugood]

By setting it up I mean how it (albeit very quickly) sets up the CYM conflict which surely is the focus of the fourth game and the importance of keeping the mirrors out of their hands. I would say Suzhou would be as good a place as any to exhibit it.

I just meant that the way S3 leaves off, it appears that the next location is the Cliff Temple, or some place at least close to the Great Wall. Suzhou is on the other side of the country and not especially near mountains/cliffs.

In regard to the ending, I’ve always thought about it being the execution that was flawed rather than the basic story point of Ryo losing the mirror - that is, I assumed the ending of S3 was always going to be Ryo losing the Phoenix Mirror, regardless of how it was portrayed.

Totally agreed which is why I don't really even understand how the ending could have been different even with Baisha.

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

Not exactly, as most Shenmue fans knew that there was still too much content for Shenmue III to conclude the saga. Also, while I cannot speak for anyone else, I do not want a rushed product. I want Suzuki to follow his vision, whether it resonates with me or not. Besides, I have already made my opinion on Shenmue III clear, and Shenmue IV’s production does not change my feelings towards the third game.

As Vivi-gamer articulated in their post, Shenmue III featured interesting plot points that were never expanded upon. The game tried to invoke Shenmue (1999)'s pacing, but felt empty overall. I missed the in-depth Virtua Fighter combat system from Shenmue (1999) and Shenmue II. Finally, there were elements that felt out of place, lacked consistency, or were redundant.

Yet, the environments are beautiful, and the attention to detail is impressive. I enjoyed forming a stronger bond with Shenhua, as she feels like a fleshed-out person. The amount of fanservice implemented speaks to the incredible respect between Yu Suzuki and Shenmue fans. Despite its perceived shortcomings, Shenmue III still felt like Shenmue at its core.

And yes, I do sympathize with Suzuki, as he reminds me of Richard Williams’ ‘The Thief and the Cobbler’ infamy. In a just world, Shenmue would be recognized as the influential masterpiece it is, instead of being on life support. Shenmue was never meant to be a niche title or an antiquated relic but what a AAA gaming experience should be. Yu Suzuki, Shenmue fans, and Shenmue deserve better than this.

 

[SMDzero]

I just meant that the way S3 leaves off, it appears that the next location is the Cliff Temple, or some place at least close to the Great Wall. Suzhou is on the other side of the country and not especially near mountains/cliffs.

Totally agreed which is why I don't really even understand how the ending could have been different even with Baisha.

With Baisha there would have been a much larger build up of Niao Sun ultimately leading to her shocking betrayal and attempted assassination of Lan Di and an epic siege of the Toulou where Shenhua is being held captive and a desperate final fight with Lan Di as Baisha burns with Lan Di feeling pain and realizing the magnitude of the betrayal.

The loss of the Phoenix mirror would have been given more weight and there would have been a longer “debrief” with Yuan and Shenhua leading to a playable epilogue trekking along the Great Wall leading to the Cliff Temple.

 

[SPG]

With Baisha there would have been a much larger build up of Niao Sun ultimately leading to her shocking betrayal and attempted assassination of Lan Di and an epic siege of the Toulou where Shenhua is being held captive and a final fight with Lan Di as Baisha burns.

The loss of the Phoenix mirror would have been given more weight and there would have been a longer “debrief” with Yuan and Shenhua leading to a playable epilogue trekking along the Great Wall leading to the Cliff Temple.

Cripes, that would’ve been top fucking quality.

 

[Seaman]

This is possible but don't you think someone would have/should have mentioned that in S3? I mean you're literally talking to people who were alive at the time and all anyone does is specifically mention the emperor and empress. Like I said, it could all be intentional but the fact that none of this has been addressed in the game at all makes me doubt how much is being set up. Suzuki didn't really offer any clarity except to say he doesn't remember the age of the emperor but the dates were all researched, so I guess we can assume it's intentional?

I guess it could have. It's something that goes with every individual player/reader/movie watcher. In terms of narrative there's two kind of people (and I'm not critizicing): those who like to be aware of everything about the story events and those who like to be like "into the fog". Me personally belong to the second group of people (with some "buts"). Take for example this movie
"Who Can Kill a Child?" which has more in common with "The Birds" than with "Village of The Damned".
Its based on a short tale and while the tale went into the reason for the children killing spree, the movie avoids answering this and I find it more scary and satisfactory.
Like I said before, its no sense to criticize if you fall into the group of those who like getting all the details about the story setup. If thats what resonates with you, that's it.
In consequence I feel like its a mistake to affirm that Shenmue or whatever story its bad or worst because of leaving loose ends. Specially when its not finished so we can't really now how much is unanswered, intentional or accidentally.

 

[iknifaugood]

And yes, I do sympathize with Suzuki, as he reminds me of Richard Williams’ ‘The Thief and the Cobbler’ infamy.

An interesting comparison as that work remains unfinished to this day because of a stubborn commitment to animating at 24 fps, something which is extremely expensive and very few people appreciate. But at least in that case I can see what the ultimate goal was, which is to achieve the smoothest animation possible; with S3, I fail to see what Suzuki is driving at.

In a just world, Shenmue would be recognized as the influential masterpiece it is, instead of being on life support.

Shenmue was given another chance at life!

With Baisha there would have been a much larger build up of Niao Sun ultimately leading to her shocking betrayal and attempted assassination of Lan Di and an epic siege of the Toulou where Shenhua is being held captive and a desperate final fight with Lan Di as Baisha burns with Lan Di feeling pain and realizing the magnitude of the betrayal.

The loss of the Phoenix mirror would have been given more weight and there would have been a longer “debrief” with Yuan and Shenhua leading to a playable epilogue trekking along the Great Wall leading to the Cliff Temple.

From experience, I have to say that something like this would have been the first thing in development and snippets would have been all over the trailers. Game designers don't tend to cut out the good parts of their games and even if this were somehow the way S3 was meant to play out, that still doesn't excuse Niaowu being a giant waste of time.

I also have to point out the mixed messages from people who claim to like S3 and defend how boring it is, but then salivate at action packed, story driven stuff like this.

In consequence I feel like its a mistake to affirm that Shenmue or whatever story its bad or worst because of leaving loose ends. Specially when its not finished so we can't really now how much is unanswered, intentional or accidentally.

It's one thing to leave loose ends when a story is complete, it's quite another to have the story set up in a way where you're legitimately questioning if the designer is following the plot. I'm sympathetic to Suzuki because Shenmue has the potential to be an awesome story, but he's talking about 4 leaders of the CYM plus 2 more bosses like he didn't get the chance to make Shenmue 3. I mean, no one expected it to end the series but, like, maybe put some of the awesome sounding stuff in that game? Instead we get claims of enough content for 7 games but he'll settle for 5.

 

[orient]

...especially since iirc the ending was fundamentally altered during development.

Fundamentally altering endings during development is basically a series staple, so too is shuffling locations, chapter orders, etc. I don't think Suzuki is particularly precious with these things. He clearly sees some plot points as more important than others, and is willing to drop some entirely in order to get the games out or made. However, with that said, I don't think we'll know if S3 was a good setup for S4 until we play S4 (hopefully).

*As for the actual topic at hand, I haven't gone back to play S3 yet 5 years later...but my memories of the ending are pretty positive, I've gotta say, apart from the cliff temple scroll mistranslation. It had some really cool stuff in there towards the end, despite it feeling rushed in some aspects. I've gotta say, I'm glad I played with Japanese VO because some of the ending dialogue is pretty cringe in English and kinda ruins the vibe.

 

[SMDzero]

An interesting comparison as that work remains unfinished to this day because of a stubborn commitment to animating at 24 fps, something which is extremely expensive and very few people appreciate. But at least in that case I can see what the ultimate goal was, which is to achieve the smoothest animation possible; with S3, I fail to see what Suzuki is driving at.

Shenmue was given another chance at life!

From experience, I have to say that something like this would have been the first thing in development and snippets would have been all over the trailers. Game designers don't tend to cut out the good parts of their games and even if this were somehow the way S3 was meant to play out, that still doesn't excuse Niaowu being a giant waste of time.

I also have to point out the mixed messages from people who claim to like S3 and defend how boring it is, but then salivate at action packed, story driven stuff like this.

It's one thing to leave loose ends when a story is complete, it's quite another to have the story set up in a way where you're legitimately questioning if the designer is following the plot. I'm sympathetic to Suzuki because Shenmue has the potential to be an awesome story, but he's talking about 4 leaders of the CYM plus 2 more bosses like he didn't get the chance to make Shenmue 3. I mean, no one expected it to end the series but, like, maybe put some of the awesome sounding stuff in that game? Instead we get claims of enough content for 7 games but he'll settle for 5.

No one is arguing that the story in S3 couldn't have been told in a better way.

You claimed that you failed to see how the story could have been better even with Baisha and I illustrated how the same story could have been told in a better way with Baisha and more money (cutscenes).

Imagine if Shenmue 2 had a shoestring budget and YS was forced to conclude the game at the end of disc 2 fighting Dou Niu (who comes out of nowhere) in Pigeon Park and then walking over to Five Star Corp in Workers Pier to get the debrief with Yuanda Zhu followed by a quick blurry FMV of Ryo in Guilin meeting Shenhua and her thoughts said out loud “my father said this is the man from the poem!” and then roll credits set to Joys theme music.

It would have been the same “story” but you would have hated it and I’d have to “defend” how the story would have been better presented with Kowloon and a larger budget.

 

[iknifaugood]

Fundamentally altering endings during development is basically a series staple, so too is shuffling locations, chapter orders, etc. I don't think Suzuki is particularly precious with these things.

True enough, but I'm just referring to basic things that were brought up in the latest interview (ie: Suzhou being the next location and the emperor being 4 years old), which S3 doesn't acknowledge one way or the other, so it can't really be said to be "setting" any of that up. It's possible that the emperor's age was intended to be treated as some kind of "plot twist" later on, but other than that I have no idea what is being driven at or why withholding that fairly common information would be valuable.

However, with that said, I don't think we'll know if S3 was a good setup for S4 until we play S4 (hopefully).

I think we can judge it as a set up for S4 in exactly the same way we judged S2; that also had a compromised ending but left a lot of lingering plot threads that fans were eager to see resolved/expanded. S3 certainly leaves off with a next logical location (the Cliff Temple) and an interesting thrust (Niao Sun vs Lan Di) but we don't have enough information about the context to speculate one way or the other. Taken in complete isolation, I wouldn't call S3 a very good cliffhanger ending.

I haven't gone back to play S3 yet 5 years later...but my memories of the ending are pretty positive, I've gotta say, apart from the cliff temple scroll mistranslation. It had some really cool stuff in there towards the end, despite it feeling rushed in some aspects.

The ending was certainly the best part of the game and were it, say, the ending of act 2, I would have been very pumped to keep playing. But as it stands, it was too little too late for me given what came before.

I've gotta say, I'm glad I played with Japanese VO because some of the ending dialogue is pretty cringe in English and kinda ruins the vibe.

Same. I will never understand the appeal of the (seemingly intentional) terrible English VO. Unless I've been misreading it this whole time (which would actually explain a lot) Shenmue is not supposed to be funny/satirical.

 

[iknifaugood]

You claimed that you failed to see how the story could have been better even with Baisha and I illustrated how the same story could have been told in a better way with Baisha

No you didn't, you said there would have been a much larger build up to Niao Sun/her betrayal. How? Niaowu is where that build up is supposed to take place and it doesn't. Presumably, Baisha would have been the next location after Shenhua gets kidnapped, rather than the Old Castle, otherwise what's the impetus for Ryo to travel there?

Imagine if Shenmue 2 had a shoestring budget and YS was forced to conclude the game at the end of disc 2 fighting Dou Niu (who comes out of nowhere) in Pigeon Park and then walking over to Five Star Corp in Workers Pier to get the debrief with Yuanda Zhu followed by a quick blurry FMV of Ryo in Guilin meeting Shenhua and her thoughts said out loud “my father said this is the man from the poem!” and then roll credits set to Joys theme music.

It would have been the same “story” but you would have hated it and I’d have to “defend” how the story would have been better presented with Kowloon and a larger budget.

I totally agree that that would be a worse version of S2, which is why I think S3 is a bad game. And honestly? If Disc 1 and 2 of S2 were the same, that alone would make it a much better game than S3. Disc 1 and 2 have the 4 wude, the chawan signs, the Wulinshu, meeting Ren, Joy, Wong, and Xiuying etc.

S2 would be like S3 if you cut out disc 4, made it twice as long and took out almost every character and story sequence except the money gates, added a character to Wan Chai called Lou Miu who you needed to learn counter elbow assault to beat and then made it so that you needed to learn reverse counter elbow assault to beat Dou Niu. Then promised that the next installment would actually be really good and full of story.

shoestring budget

Shenmue 3 had a $20 million budget and is to this day the most successful videogame Kickstarter ever!

 

[SMDzero]

No you didn't, you said there would have been a much larger build up to Niao Sun/her betrayal. How? Niaowu is where that build up is supposed to take place and it doesn't. Presumably, Baisha would have been the next location after Shenhua gets kidnapped, rather than the Old Castle, otherwise what's the impetus for Ryo to travel there?

I totally agree that that would be a worse version of S2, which is why I think S3 is a bad game. And honestly? If Disc 1 and 2 of S2 were the same, that alone would make it a much better game than S3. Disc 1 and 2 have the 4 wude, the chawan signs, the Wulinshu, meeting Ren, Joy, Wong, and Xiuying etc.

S2 would be like S3 if you cut out disc 4, made it twice as long and took out almost every character and story sequence except the money gates, added a character to Wan Chai called Lou Miu who you needed to learn counter elbow assault to beat and then made it so that you needed to learn reverse counter elbow assault to beat Dou Niu. Then promised that the next installment would actually be really good and full of story.

Shenmue 3 had a $20 million budget and is to this day the most successful videogame Kickstarter ever!

Niao Sun could have easily had a better build up with an additional location in the game (50% more locations than we got) and more cutscenes. How can you not understand how this is possible? More locations + more cutscenes= opportunity to create better character building.

If Shenmue 2 had LITERALLY been just been disc 1 and 2 then nothing would have happened in the game.

4 Wude? So what? Who cares? First 3 blades and now 4 Wudu? What’s next a seminar on the 5 Chinese spice? Is YS just giving us useless Chinese trivia one number at a time?
Shenmue 3 tells us real history about martial arts being banned in China and 1910 being the last years of imperial China… trivia that’s actually interesting.

Chawan signs? For what purpose? Just to meet some random guy with a face the size of Texas who’s not even Yuanda Zu? We got Chiwan signs in S3 anyway and it wasn’t even mainline content.

Wulinshu? That’s a plot point that goes nowhere even in the full Shenmue 2 game. We read the book and learn that Zhao was the master of Tiger Swallow style… okay but why doesn’t Ryo actually discuss this with Zhu??

Wong, Xiuying, Joy and Ren are better side characters than anyone you meet in Shenmue 3 but more cutscenes could have fleshed out Broom Girl and Mr Muscles. And cutscenes cost MONEY and $20 million is laughably modest by today’s standards especially for an open world game.

Imagine being given $20 Million and tasked with rebuilding the collapsed Key bridge in Maryland. You’d be bragging about how much money you had only to realize the projects true cost…. and your mind would break. Suddenly you’d be on the street panhandling begging for spare change to help fund the bridge and royally pissed that you were given an inadequate budget for such a massive job.

Also Shenmue 3 raising the most money on Kickstarter means absolutely nothing. If FF7 remake had been announced on Kickstarter it would have raised 100x more than S3.

Regarding money gates, we both know that everyone reading this save scummed while playing S2 which had plenty of money gates itself. And don’t tell me it wasn’t a little fun saving money to buy the drunken master his wine which brings me to my next (final point) NPC personality.

S3 had more personality in its NPCs than S2 had. S3 had more memorable NPCs in Bailu than anyone in Hong Kong. Bailu felt like home almost as much as Yokosuka did. And all the street vendors in Niaowu were such cards…. the bald guy in the barbershop. The peaches butt woman on the promenade, the woman who won’t stop shoving her crappy tea down your throat. Did any street NPCs have 1 iota of this personality in Shenmue 2? Walk around Kowloon in Shenmue 2 the street vendors don’t even have food at their stalls… theyre just set dressing meant to run past without a second thought.

Suffice it to say S3 is only a worse S2 because of budget.

 

[SPG]

Shenmue is a walking simulator.

END OF.

 

[iknifaugood]

Niao Sun could have easily had a better build up with an additional location in the game (50% more locations than we got) and more cutscenes. How can you not understand how this is possible? More locations + more cutscenes= opportunity to create better character building.

Suzuki had all of Niaowu to build her/Li Feng up and the name Niao Sun is never even mentioned. So no, adding another location does not fix that. And, again, we got Niaowu exactly as it was meant to be, unless you mean to suggest that there was even more content that was cut, but again: how? When is Baisha supposed to swoop in and save the day? And why wasn't Niaowu cut instead, if it was such a waste of time?

If Shenmue 2 had LITERALLY been just been disc 1 and 2 then nothing would have happened in the game.

You meet Lishao Tao and get directed to Yuanda Zhu; it would have been slightly more eventful than S1 where you meet Master Chen and get directed to Lishao Tao and exponentially more eventful than S3 where, apart from Niao Sun getting the Phoenix Mirror (for which we are given zero context), nothing of consequence happens and precious little new information is gleaned.

4 Wude? So what? Who cares? First 3 blades and now 4 Wudu? What’s next the 5 Chinese spice? Is YS just giving us useless Chinese trivia one number at a time?
Shenmue 3 tells us real history about martial arts being banned in China and 1910 being the last years of imperial China… trivia that’s actually interesting.

The four wude represent the underlying philosophy behind Ryo's martial arts training and are key to understanding both how the series presents morality (which, in a story about revenge, is kind of important) and how much Ryo needs to learn. Your other two examples are literally just trivia and have nothing to tether them to the story.

Chawan signs? For what purpose? Just to meet some random guy with a face the size of Texas who’s not even Yuanda Zu?

The Chawan signs were a cool bit of world building to demonstrate how martial artists hide/communicate in plain sight and further illustrated how dangerous the world Ryo is entering is, where the wrong placement of a teacup could get you killed. Zhang also points you to the conflict between Ren and Dou Niu, again expanding the cast and making the world feel bigger. The only issue I have with this scene is that Zhang doesn't know where Yuanda Zhu is in this scene, but then knows where he is when we meet him again in Kowloon. But that's a very minor nitpick.

We got Chiwan signs in S3 anyway and it wasn’t even mainline content.

Ya Shenmue 3 doesn't get points for that.

Wulinshu? That’s a plot point that goes nowhere even in the full Shenmue 2 game. We read the book and learn that Zhao was the master of Tiger Swallow style… okay but why doesn’t Ryo actually discuss this with Zhu??

The Wulinshu is where Ryo discovers the Chawan sign and is, again, say it with me: an example of world building. It's bigging up Yuanda Zhu as highly knowledgeable of martial arts history, it shows a huge cast of potential characters, and their masters of different styles. This is how Shenmue 1 and 2 depict martial arts and training, as relationships between memorable characters; something that S3 abandons in favor of minigames.

but more cutscenes could have fleshed out Broom Girl, Mr Muscles.

There is nothing in those kind of cutscenes that would incur costs that weren't already included in the game. What they needed was writing.

$20 million is laughably modest by today’s standards especially for an open world game.

Then he should have changed the scope/design, shouldn't he? Hellblade and Sifu had similar budgets.

ou’d be bragging about how much money you had only to realize the projects true cost…. and your mind would break. Suddenly you’d be on the street panhandling begging for spare change to help fund the bridge and royally pissed that you were given an inadequate budget for such a massive job.

Suzuki, as the director, surely knew this. And yet look what ended up in Shenmue 3. The biggest/only real QTE sequence in the game is a chase around Niaowu featuring nobodies.

Regarding money gates, we both know that everyone reading this save scummed while playing S2 which had plenty of money gates itself.

S2 has 2 money gates, which are a fraction of what is costs in S3 and after the second money gate, buying into the fights in Kowloon, Ryo has made 6x the amount you had to earn and then gets to keep it. Which has mysteriously disappeared in S3. They're also the second worst part of the game and I have no idea why Suzuki chose to make that the focus of the long awaited sequel.

*EDIT* And for the zillionth time, Ryo gets his bag stolen and is in a foreign land. His lack of money is part of the story in S2!

And don’t tell me it wasn’t a little fun saving money to buy the drunken master his wine

It wasn't. Like at all.

S3 had more personality in its NPCs than S2 had.

Suffice it to say S3 is only a worse S2 because of budget.

If you actually think that, and aren't just being cheeky with your "criticisms" of Shenmue 2, then I have to ask why you even like the series? It's on the strength of that game (and the original) that the series was revived. It's because of S3's failure that it needs to be revived again and may stay that way, which kind of circles back to the point of this thread...