Does the lack of Shenmue 4 change your opinion of Shenmue 3?

[iknifaugood]

The same cannot be said though for money generated elsewhere, whether that be through exclusivity deals or sales of the final product.

Depends on what you mean by this. Any money that was given to YS Net in the form of budget (either from publishers or investors) is technically YS Net's, but then it's subject to recoup. Exclusivity deals and sales are part of the recoup.

Or you can choose to believe that Yu went from wanting to make a game that was entirely story-focussed to a game that barely touched on the story at all based on the say-so of Ryan Payton.

I think the pressure was on once he went the KS route and then many different people were able exert influence over him. I will say that a Shenmue game stripped of its "open world" trappings is essentially just a story game, so that does seem to track with his initial instinct.

The fact that he's exploring the idea when there are still at least two more Shenmue games to make would seem to suggest as much, no? Why talk about it in two interviews if it's not something he's seriously considering?

I guess. I don't think we're likely to see either game so who knows?

The items needed to be modelled either way and the animations for picking up key items would also have had to be made. With that in mind, being able to inspect random objects likely adds very little to the overall cost of production.

Not necessarily, there's a lot of animation depending on the variety of items and there's the added tedium of how laborious it makes relatively simple interactions. This was something that was understandable when Shenmue's graphics were mind blowing but nowadays no one in their right mind would make a game where it takes a full minute to buy and drink a can of Coke for no reason.

As for some NPCs being unhelpful, I really don't see your issue. Most of the people in Yokosuka probably wouldn't have known who Charlie was or where to find sailors, so them telling Ryo as much makes perfect sense. What wouldn't make sense would be if Ryo could only ask one or two specific people for leads (which would also make story progression incredibly frustrating).

Why would limiting the number of people Ryo can talk to make story progression frustrating? Bear in mind that any time I'm referencing the flaws of S1, I'm not considering leaving everything else as is. Much of S1, particularly disc 1, is spent asking for directions and waiting for specific times; not exactly amazing game design imo.

I was merely expressing that the quality of said combat isn't something that concerns me too much.

Depends what you mean by quality, as I mentioned, merely changing the input method had huge effects on the rest of the game.

You could make this argument about pretty much every game ever made; save for those that throw up a big warning whenever players reach a point of no return.

You cannot make this argument about every game; S1 contains numerous, arbitrary instances of this for nearly every optional scene. Most games, including S2 and 3, make it clear to the player when they won't be returning to an area; I don't think it's a bad thing to telegraph to the player one way or another when they're about to miss out on content, particularly people looking to 100% the game.

Would you rather Shenmue had taken this approach, or would you have preferred it if the game manufactured some artificial roadblock preventing players from finding Heartbeats until after they'd spoken to the right person?

I would make very big changes to S1 and it's telling that S2 and 3 abandon a lot of its design decisions.

It kind of does do this in other places already, and these are the very worst parts of the game.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Respectfully, all of these ideas sound terrible to me.

Widening the window, or making it take place over a set time are terrible, but making it so that you can't learn a move once you make it past Heartbeats isn't (something you can stretch to take weeks, mind you)? How about just giving the game a normal dialogue system where Ryo can just talk to Yamagishi about martial arts whenever he wants?

I like that you can only find Yamagishi-san having a drink and reminiscing about his old friend in the immediate aftermath of Iwao's death. If he were there all the time, the moment would lose all meaning.

You literally have to talk to Yamagishi on the very first day of the game and they don't talk about this at all. As a matter of fact, this would be a perfect time for him to have the scene where he teaches Ryo the move as it would help establish that you can learn moves from random NPCs.

If he'd used just the Kickstarter money to make such a game (which you seem to be suggesting he should have), I think we'd be in the exact same position we are now, only without Shenmue 3 to show for it.

1. I never suggested a visual novel, I've repeatedly said RPG which you might notice is what Shenmue began life as. 2. Having a normal Shenmue RPG style game is very preferable to S3 imo and 3. Virtua Fighter RPG was originally supposed to be one game, attempting to stretch out each location to its own full game when they obviously can't sustain it is in my view the biggest issue with the series and something that, if rectified, could actually make the series successful. I just don't see the benefit in making everything so protracted and this has obviously come to a head with S3 where "nothing happens" is the number one complaint about the game (at least from people who were ostensibly fans).

Firstly, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the guys who made Disco Elysium couldn't care less about the opinions of some random person on the internet, let alone get offended by them. What this even has to do with Disco Elysium (a game centered primarily around player choice and stat-based skill checks; two things that would not translate well at all to any of the mediums I mentioned -- although would work quite well as a table-top board game), I'll never really know, but I find it rich that you find this insulting given some of your comments about Shenmue 3.

I'm not saying anyone would find what you said offensive, it's just ridiculous to suggest that 2D games, low budget games, games without voice acting etc. are somehow less immersive than a novel (or a 20 year old DC game for that matter). I totally intend for my comments to be insulting to Shenmue 3, I would imagine that you don't actually intend to insult the vast majority of games.

Case in point.

I'm confused. So what is it you want from the future of the series?

 

[WuyingRen]

Not necessarily, there's a lot of animation depending on the variety of items and there's the added tedium of how laborious it makes relatively simple interactions. This was something that was understandable when Shenmue's graphics were mind blowing but nowadays no one in their right mind would make a game where it takes a full minute to buy and drink a can of Coke for no reason.

Right. Which is probably why eating and drinking animations weren't included in Shenmue 3. Well, that, and to save costs, one presumes. The same approach was also taken with shops, prize exchanges, and capsule toy purchases, at least to the extent that the animations for the latter are a whole lot simpler than the ones in the first two games.

Off the top of my head, the only items that you can pick up and properly examine in Shenmue 3 are pieces of fruit and items pertaining to story exploration sections. Well, unless you include viewing items in your inventory, although this just consists of rotating a 3D model around - most of which seem to have been purchased on the cheap or acquired for free via the Unreal Engine asset store.

Why would limiting the number of people Ryo can talk to make story progression frustrating? Bear in mind that any time I'm referencing the flaws of S1, I'm not considering leaving everything else as is. Much of S1, particularly disc 1, is spent asking for directions and waiting for specific times; not exactly amazing game design imo.

Well, let's think about how exactly your idea of limiting unnecessary NPC interactions would actually work. As far as I can see, there are three possibilities:

1. Reduce the number of NPCs in the game.
2. Make it so that only certain NPCs can be spoken to.
3. Make it so that every NPC has the information you're looking for.

Reducing the number of NPCs would make the world feel empty and less lived in. In more intimate locations, this might not be too much of an issue, but in larger ones, it would be very noticeable. We saw this already with Niaowu. You could perhaps argue that Niaowu could or should have been a little smaller, but even if it had been, there'll presumably be other large or densely populated locations in future games where such a solution would prove problematic.

Making it so that only certain NPCs can be spoken to would also come with one or two major pitfalls. Either players would have to physically walk over to an NPC to find out if it's possible to interact with them (which would be frustrating if it then turned out that you couldn't speak to them) or there'd need to be some kind of indicator that could be seen from a distance (which would break immersion). I suppose such an indicator could be optional, but then we'd be faced with the first issue once again.

Shenmue 3 did actually have a few NPCs that you couldn't talk to in the market area of Niaowu; presumably just to make it feel a bit more lively. There are some in Yokosuka too, and probably Hong Kong if you look hard enough. However, these are usually few and far between and there are always a bunch of other NPCs nearby for players to speak with. This approach still breaks immersion though, because there's no logical reason why Ryo would choose to interact with some NPCs and not others.

Making it so that every NPC has the information you're looking for makes no sense from a story perspective. It works if they're guiding you to a location ala Shenmue 2, but not if every single NPC witnessed a key event, or overheard a conversation, etc. This approach is also infinitely more expensive, as rather than just having to record a few different variations of "I'm sorry, I don't know", you need dialogue for every single story beat. With that in mind, it fails as a cost-cutting measure as well.

Depends what you mean by quality, as I mentioned, merely changing the input method had huge effects on the rest of the game.

Shenmue 3 still had taught moves. Granted, it would have been nice if the button inputs had corresponded more to the steps required to perform the moves like they did in the first two games, but to say that this had "huge effects" on the rest of the game seems somewhat hyperbolic.

You cannot make this argument about every game; S1 contains numerous, arbitrary instances of this for nearly every optional scene. Most games, including S2 and 3, make it clear to the player when they won't be returning to an area; I don't think it's a bad thing to telegraph to the player one way or another when they're about to miss out on content, particularly people looking to 100% the game.

The only point you leave an area for good in the first game is right at the very end, at which point, the need for any kind of warning seems somewhat redundant.

On a side note, it kind of bothers me that players have been conditioned to want to "100% the game". Unlike movies, books, and TV shows, which remain the same each time they're watched or read, games have the potential to provide unique experiences with each playthrough. Sadly, however, unless there are microtransactions involved, the industry would rather players consume every last drop of content as quickly as possible and then move on to the next game. In that sense, I'll agree that Shenmue is antiquated, as it's one of the few remaining video game franchises that actually encourages players to take their time rather than just handing them a checklist and promising them some digital trophies if they cross everything off.

You literally have to talk to Yamagishi on the very first day of the game and they don't talk about this at all. As a matter of fact, this would be a perfect time for him to have the scene where he teaches Ryo the move as it would help establish that you can learn moves from random NPCs.

Yamagishi-san has a bad back when you first talk to him. Probably not the best time for him to be demonstrating the Double Blow.

Attempting to stretch out each location to its own full game when they obviously can't sustain it is in my view the biggest issue with the series and something that, if rectified, could actually make the series successful. I just don't see the benefit in making everything so protracted and this has obviously come to a head with S3 where "nothing happens" is the number one complaint about the game (at least from people who were ostensibly fans).

So your solution to reducing the overall cost of making the games is to include more locations in each one? I think most fans would be happy with better storytelling.

I'm not saying anyone would find what you said offensive, it's just ridiculous to suggest that 2D games, low budget games, games without voice acting etc. are somehow less immersive than a novel (or a 20 year old DC game for that matter).

It would be ridiculous if that's what I'd said. We were clearly talking about the prospect of a low-budget 2D Shenmue game without voice acting, not all low-budget 2D games without voice acting in general.

I totally intend for my comments to be insulting to Shenmue 3

We know. It would actually be incredibly disrespectful if it weren't so goddamn hilarious. I bet even Yu Suzuki would get a good laugh out of some wannabe developer telling him how his game is fundamentally flawed and spouting off nonsense about some "extremely high-level financially viable business plan for the series".

Here's an idea. Why not use the millions of dollars you've generated from all of your other successful games and your extremely high-level business plan to make your own Shenmue-style game? Everybody's entitled to their opinion, but coming to a Shenmue fan forum and intentionally insulting Shenmue and its creator feels a lot like trolling to me.

 

[SMDzero]

Right. Which is probably why eating and drinking animations weren't included in Shenmue 3. Well, that, and to save costs, one presumes. The same approach was also taken with shops, prize exchanges, and capsule toy purchases, at least to the extent that the animations for the latter are a whole lot simpler than the ones in the first two games.

Off the top of my head, the only items that you can pick up and properly examine in Shenmue 3 are pieces of fruit and items pertaining to story exploration sections. Well, unless you include viewing items in your inventory, although this just consists of rotating a 3D model around - most of which seem to have been purchased on the cheap or acquired for free via the Unreal Engine asset store.

Well, let's think about how exactly your idea of limiting unnecessary NPC interactions would actually work. As far as I can see, there are three possibilities:

1. Reduce the number of NPCs in the game.
2. Make it so that only certain NPCs can be spoken to.
3. Make it so that every NPC has the information you're looking for.

Reducing the number of NPCs would make the world feel empty and less lived in. In more intimate locations, this might not be too much of an issue, but in larger ones, it would be very noticeable. We saw this already with Niaowu. You could perhaps argue that Niaowu could or should have been a little smaller, but even if it had been, there'll presumably be other large or densely populated locations in future games where such a solution would prove problematic.

Making it so that only certain NPCs can be spoken to would also come with one or two major pitfalls. Either players would have to physically walk over to an NPC to find out if it's possible to interact with them (which would be frustrating if it then turned out that you couldn't speak to them) or there'd need to be some kind of indicator that could be seen from a distance (which would break immersion). I suppose such an indicator could be optional, but then we'd be faced with the first issue once again.

Shenmue 3 did actually have a few NPCs that you couldn't talk to in the market area of Niaowu; presumably just to make it feel a bit more lively. There are some in Yokosuka too, and probably Hong Kong if you look hard enough. However, these are usually few and far between and there are always a bunch of other NPCs nearby for players to speak with. This approach still breaks immersion though, because there's no logical reason why Ryo would choose to interact with some NPCs and not others.

Making it so that every NPC has the information you're looking for makes no sense from a story perspective. It works if they're guiding you to a location ala Shenmue 2, but not if every single NPC witnessed a key event, or overheard a conversation, etc. This approach is also infinitely more expensive, as rather than just having to record a few different variations of "I'm sorry, I don't know", you need dialogue for every single story beat. With that in mind, it fails as a cost-cutting measure as well.

Shenmue 3 still had taught moves. Granted, it would have been nice if the button inputs had corresponded more to the steps required to perform the moves like they did in the first two games, but to say that this had "huge effects" on the rest of the game seems somewhat hyperbolic.

The only point you leave an area for good in the first game is right at the very end, at which point, the need for any kind of warning seems somewhat redundant.

On a side note, it kind of bothers me that players have been conditioned to want to "100% the game". Unlike movies, books, and TV shows, which remain the same each time they're watched or read, games have the potential to provide unique experiences with each playthrough. Sadly, however, unless there are microtransactions involved, the industry would rather players consume every last drop of content as quickly as possible and then move on to the next game. In that sense, I'll agree that Shenmue is antiquated, as it's one of the few remaining video game franchises that actually encourages players to take their time rather than just handing them a checklist and promising them some digital trophies if they cross everything off.

Yamagishi-san has a bad back when you first talk to him. Probably not the best time for him to be demonstrating the Double Blow.

So your solution to reducing the overall cost of making the games is to include more locations in each one? I think most fans would be happy with better storytelling.

It would be ridiculous if that's what I'd said. We were clearly talking about the prospect of a low-budget 2D Shenmue game without voice acting, not all low-budget 2D games without voice acting in general.

We know. It would actually be incredibly disrespectful if it weren't so goddamn hilarious. I bet even Yu Suzuki would get a good laugh out of some wannabe developer telling him how his game is fundamentally flawed and spouting off nonsense about some "extremely high-level financially viable business plan for the series".

Here's an idea. Why not use the millions of dollars you've generated from all of your other successful games and your extremely high-level business plan to make your own Shenmue-style game? Everybody's entitled to their opinion, but coming to a Shenmue fan forum and intentionally insulting Shenmue and its creator feels a lot like trolling to me.

I can understand why eating animations were not included since it would make the mechanic more intrusive and time intensive. Although it would have been nice to retain the soda drinking animations at the vending machines in Niaowu.

It's probably best that the shop purchase interface was menu based given how tedious people found picking up the apples at the hotel.

A Shenmue without an abundant number of NPCs just wouldn't be Shenmue. The environments of Shenmue are a character in and of themselves and memorable NPCs are a part of that.

Niaowu could have used more NPCs cruising around but it got away with having tons of purposeful shops each with an NPC with a lot of personality. If fact, I bet we actually talked to more NPCs in Niaowu than in Wan Chai.

At least NPC interaction in Niaowu followed a sense of logic, all shop owners can be talked to and (nearly) all street NPCs could not be talked to. If YS made it that some street NPCs could be randomly talked to and some couldn't it would be terrible and awkward figuring out who you're "allowed" to talk to.

Also, did we "learn" moves in S3 aside from the forklift boss? At least they got one in there.

I agree with not needing to 100% Shenmue... just the other day I found out you could pay back the owner of the diner at the cafe in Pigeon Park for the damage you caused. It's nice to find new things in Shenmue.

iknifaugood claims he hates Shenmue 3 but I bet he was giddy as a school girl when he was first playing it and only soured at the ending which we all know was horribly rushed due to budget.

In fact, he's probably just upset because he never caught the King of Bailu.

 

[danielmann861]

Nope...my opinion stays the same.

I like the game warts and all. And this isn't me being a Shenmue apologist. I'm well aware Shenmue III has its warts. The usual complaints are valid. The ending is rushed. The fighting system is undercooked. The whole game has a general feel of it needed more time and more money in some regards.

But despite all of that? What I love about Shenmue remains in tact in SIII. The mood is there. The vibe is there. It's Shenmue as I wanted it to be and despite its flaws, I still find myself going back to it when I want a nice chill game. And I still marvel at the fact that it even exists at all.

Cynics can hate all they want. Arm chair critics can cry me a river over what THEY wanted it to be. Super Eye Patch Wolf and his video can bugger off. And the new Yakuza bandwagon jumpers can bugger off with their "just play Yakuza" and "Yakuza is Shenmue but better" shit- I was playing Yakuza LONG before it was trendy and already know they are different games entirely. So the bandwagon jumpers can bugger off with that crap.

Was is the right move commercially? Probably not. It probably needed to be modernized a lot more. But is it what I love about Shenmue? Absolutely. Even with its flaws. For me, the charm of Shenmue is still all over that game. And I'm thankful it even exists at all.

If I had to live in a world with or without Shenmue III? I'd still take the Shenmue III we got over nothing at all.

 

[iknifaugood]

1. Reduce the number of NPCs in the game.
2. Make it so that only certain NPCs can be spoken to.
3. Make it so that every NPC has the information you're looking for.

Considering number 2 is the only one I even implied as a solution and you correctly point out that Shenmue games have already done this, I'm just going to ignore the other 2.

Making it so that only certain NPCs can be spoken to would also come with one or two major pitfalls. Either players would have to physically walk over to an NPC to find out if it's possible to interact with them (which would be frustrating if it then turned out that you couldn't speak to them) or there'd need to be some kind of indicator that could be seen from a distance (which would break immersion). I suppose such an indicator could be optional, but then we'd be faced with the first issue once again.

Many...MANY games do this and it's usually very obvious which NPCs can and can't be interacted with. For instance NPCs just walking down the street, or grouped together usually can't be interacted with. And every single game, including all 3 Shenmue games, have some kind of indicator that you can interact with an NPC.

Shenmue 3 still had taught moves. Granted, it would have been nice if the button inputs had corresponded more to the steps required to perform the moves like they did in the first two games, but to say that this had "huge effects" on the rest of the game seems somewhat hyperbolic.

Hyperbolic? I'm just gonna leave this here: https://shenmue.neoseeker.com/wiki/Taught_Moves#:~:text=Within the game are lots,method is from instruction scrolls.

The only point you leave an area for good in the first game is right at the very end, at which point, the need for any kind of warning seems somewhat redundant.

You understand that the point of warning a player that they're leaving an area is so that they don't miss out on content right? Also, S1 essentially railroads you to the end of the game once you get the forklift job without warning. There are only a few windows during this time where you can even make it back to Dobuita to buy move scrolls and this is when the combat really kicks in.

On a side note, it kind of bothers me that players have been conditioned to want to "100% the game". Unlike movies, books, and TV shows, which remain the same each time they're watched or read, games have the potential to provide unique experiences with each playthrough.

Because most games are huge time investments. Most people aren't going to replay a 30+ hour game when there are other 30+ hour games that they could play instead. Movies can be rewatched in one sitting and parts of movies and books can also be skipped over if you only want to rewatch/reread a specific scene. I'm not a completionist by any means, but the concern with "replayability" is from a bygone era, primarily story-driven adventure games (many old PC point and click games adopted different gimmicks to combat this).

Shenmue is antiquated, as it's one of the few remaining video game franchises that actually encourages players to take their time

It doesn't, actually. Shenmue progresses the player from story point to story point with no way to go back; the way the game made players "take their time" was to have events take place at specific times (with no way of knowing which events would block or unlock other events), with big chunks where the player would be free to explore at their leisure but that was abandoned in S2 and beyond with the "wait" feature, which most people view as an improvement.

Yamagishi-san has a bad back when you first talk to him. Probably not the best time for him to be demonstrating the Double Blow.

1. You don't need to write that he has a bad back, obviously. and 2. He mentions nothing about Ryo's father or martial arts and, considering this can potentially be the only time you interact with him, he doesn't exactly leave the impression that he's significant.

So your solution to reducing the overall cost of making the games is to include more locations in each one?

Making it easier and cost-effective to include more locations, yes. Most RPGs take place across entire continents or regions and have for decades. This isn't witchcraft.

We were clearly talking about the prospect of a low-budget 2D Shenmue game without voice acting, not all low-budget 2D games without voice acting in general.

I have no idea how your standards for immersion would apply uniquely to Shenmue. It sounds like you want Shenmue to be a AAA game, which is simply unrealistic.

We know. It would actually be incredibly disrespectful if it weren't so goddamn hilarious.

Not liking a game is disrespectful?

I bet even Yu Suzuki would get a good laugh out of some wannabe developer telling him how his game is fundamentally flawed and spouting off nonsense about some "extremely high-level financially viable business plan for the series".

your extremely high-level business plan

You don't understand what "high-level" means in this context, do you? Also I'm hardly alone in telling him his game is fundamentally flawed and, considering he said he'd make S4 have more broad appeal, I don't suspect he found the reception funny.

Why not use the millions of dollars you've generated from all of your other successful games and your extremely high-level business plan to make your own Shenmue-style game?

A Shenmue-style game is called an RPG. What's unique about Shenmue (at least to me) is not the gameplay, it's the mixture of the setting, the martial arts genre, the vibe of the locations, the music and characters, and the intrigue of the story. It's impossible to make a Shenmue-style game imo without just making Shenmue.

The successes and failures of my games is not something I care to share.

Everybody's entitled to their opinion, but coming to a Shenmue fan forum and intentionally insulting Shenmue and its creator feels a lot like trolling to me.

And getting Shenmue 3 made and then winding up in the exact same spot feels like trolling to me.

 

[WuyingRen]

Hyperbolic? I'm just gonna leave this here: https://shenmue.neoseeker.com/wiki/Taught_Moves#:~:text=Within the game are lots,method is from instruction scrolls.

Yes, hyperbolic. The first two games may have more taught moves (many of which are optional), but to say that Shenmue 3 having fewer taught moves had "huge effects" on the rest of the game is downright ridiculous. In fact, when it comes to moves that Ryo can learn, Shenmue 3 actually has far more than either of its predecessors thanks to the abundance of scroll moves that are on offer.

Like I said before, I too would have preferred it if these moves could have been taught to Ryo like some of the ones in the previous two games, but the fact that you're still salty about this almost five years later is a little sad.

You understand that the point of warning a player that they're leaving an area is so that they don't miss out on content right? Also, S1 essentially railroads you to the end of the game once you get the forklift job without warning. There are only a few windows during this time where you can even make it back to Dobuita to buy move scrolls and this is when the combat really kicks in.

Absolutely, though anybody paying even the slightest bit of attention to the narrative shouldn't need to be warned that the story is progressing. As for your comment about not being able to buy move scrolls, you can do this pretty much any day after work, as Bunkado Antiques is open until 10:00 PM. Bizarrely, one of your earlier suggestions for "fixing" Shenmue was to have the game take place over a fixed amount of time, which would presumably have made this "issue" that you've just now manufactured even worse.

Because most games are huge time investments. Most people aren't going to replay a 30+ hour game when there are other 30+ hour games that they could play instead. Movies can be rewatched in one sitting and parts of movies and books can also be skipped over if you only want to rewatch/reread a specific scene. I'm not a completionist by any means, but the concern with "replayability" is from a bygone era, primarily story-driven adventure games (many old PC point and click games adopted different gimmicks to combat this).

I'd argue that the reason why there's less interest in replayability these days is because there are fewer games that are actually worth replaying. A lot of people now view content as something to be consumed rather than savored, which discourages some devs from going the extra mile.

It doesn't, actually. Shenmue progresses the player from story point to story point with no way to go back; the way the game made players "take their time" was to have events take place at specific times (with no way of knowing which events would block or unlock other events), with big chunks where the player would be free to explore at their leisure but that was abandoned in S2 and beyond with the "wait" feature, which most people view as an improvement.

With no way to go back to what, exactly? In the first game, at least, players are free to visit all of the game's main areas right up until the end of the game. Yes, certain events and interactions can be missed because they're tied to specific dates and story beats, but by progressing through the story, players are constantly gaining access to new ones. The game does hurry players along after they start working at the harbor, but before that, they're free to go at whatever pace they like. As you point out, Shenmue 2 and Shenmue 3 grant players even more control over the pacing, and make it clear to them when they're going to be leaving an area for good.

1. You don't need to write that he has a bad back, obviously. and 2. He mentions nothing about Ryo's father or martial arts and, considering this can potentially be the only time you interact with him, he doesn't exactly leave the impression that he's significant.

You don't need to write that Lan Di killed Iwao either, but it's part of the story. If Yamagishi hadn't almost been hit by the black car, Ryo wouldn't have gone to speak with him in the first place, so your idea of him teaching Ryo a move then also falls flat. Even if the game did manufacture a reason for you to go and talk to him, it would be a little inappropriate for him to just crank out the Double Blow while Ryo is asking for information about his murdered father.

The moment with Yamagishi reminiscing about his dead friend is one of the most organic and genuine encounters in the first game and I wouldn't change it for the world. The game doesn't tell you that Yamagishi is significant because he isn't, really, except for that one fleeting moment in which he is.

Making it easier and cost-effective to include more locations, yes. Most RPGs take place across entire continents or regions and have for decades. This isn't witchcraft.

Ignoring the fact that most modern RPGs cost significantly more to make than Shenmue 3 did, including more locations of the same quality as the ones found in previous Shenmue games would cost more money. Spending less time in each location would therefore be the exact opposite of cost-effective. This isn't rocket science.

I have no idea how your standards for immersion would apply uniquely to Shenmue. It sounds like you want Shenmue to be a AAA game, which is simply unrealistic.

Video games can be immersive in different ways. Shenmue achieves this primarily by throwing players into a hyper-realistic world that's populated by believable characters.

Not liking a game is disrespectful?

No, but intentionally insulting said game and its creator on a fan forum sure is.

You don't understand what "high-level" means in this context, do you?

I'm well aware what a high-level business plan is. I'm not sure you are, though, as what you've described here isn't one.

Also I'm hardly alone in telling him his game is fundamentally flawed.

Please show me one review from a professional outlet that describes Shenmue 3 even half as negatively as you have.

The successes and failures of my games is not something I care to share.

No need. The opinions you've shared across these forums (and the fact that you have so much free time to talk about a game that you don't even like) tell me all that I need to know.

And getting Shenmue 3 made and then winding up in the exact same spot feels like trolling to me.

What does this even mean?

 

[Tsukuyomimagi99]

I am sorry if this seems insensitive, but if your life is so busy with family, work, education, and other hobbies, how do you make time to play video games? Why is it that despite their busy lives, Shenmue fans are so passionate that they find ways to play this trilogy countless times? This is where I agree with WuyingRen about this absurd completionist mentality. Why not just play a game at your own pace? After all, the game is not going anywhere, and this hobby is supposed to be fun and relaxing.

A significant advantage of replaying games is a deeper understanding of the narrative and enhanced gameplay skills. How do you think all those E-Sports players and/or people who upload combo videos on YouTube became so good? When it comes to Shenmue (1999), I am glad I played it when I did. The waiting times and tank controls never bothered me. I became so immersed in this world that I felt sad leaving Yokosuka for the first time. So if I am in the minority about the first Shenmue game, so be it.

I think iknifaugood really cares about Shenmue in a "tough love" sort of way. While I do not agree with all their opinions, the passion is evident. To me, apathy is worse than criticism, even if it is towards something we cherish. Finally, I apologize for being pedantic, but the Shenmue III Kickstarter money is in the ballpark of 4.6 to 5.1 million after backer rewards and Kickstarter fees. Thank you guys for this interesting discussion.

 

[iknifaugood]

Yes, hyperbolic. The first two games may have more taught moves (many of which are optional), but to say that Shenmue 3 having fewer taught moves had "huge effects" on the rest of the game is downright ridiculous.

So complaining about completely removing one of the main sources of side content and reasons for engaging with NPCs is "ridiculous". OK. Shenmue 3 has one move that you are taught from an NPC that can be used in combat; if we agree that combat and Ryo's progression as a martial artist are core to Shenmue as a game then removing a big chunk of that is, yes, a big flaw.

but the fact that you're still salty about this almost five years later is a little sad.

Do bad games become good the more time passes?

Absolutely, though anybody paying even the slightest bit of attention to the narrative shouldn't need to be warned that the story is progressing.

S2 warns you before you go into the Yellowhead building and S3 before going into the Old Castle; paying attention to the story isn't the same thing as being able to read the designer's mind.

Bizarrely, one of your earlier suggestions for "fixing" Shenmue was to have the game take place over a fixed amount of time, which would presumably have made this "issue" that you've just now manufactured even worse.

No, this would do the precise opposite and, as pointed out, you could only think this if you assume I would make 1 change and leave everything else the same.

With no way to go back to what, exactly?

Any event that's gated by your progress.

Even if the game did manufacture a reason for you to go and talk to him, it would be a little inappropriate for him to just crank out the Double Blow while Ryo is asking for information about his murdered father.

The moment with Yamagishi reminiscing about his dead friend is one of the most organic and genuine encounters in the first game and I wouldn't change it for the world. The game doesn't tell you that Yamagishi is significant because he isn't, really, except for that one fleeting moment in which he is.

Your entire point was that Yamagishi should only engage with Ryo in the aftermath of Iwao's death, just not on the first day? So it should be essential to a first time playthrough that you talk to him about how much his ass hurts, but let's leave the poignant scene where he reminisces about his old friend and teaches you a useful move to easily miss-able side content. There's a reason games aren't made like this.

Ignoring the fact that most modern RPGs cost significantly more to make than Shenmue 3 did, including more locations of the same quality as the ones found in previous Shenmue games would cost more money. Spending less time in each location would therefore be the exact opposite of cost-effective. This isn't rocket science.

I almost didn't even respond to this post because it's such obvious bad faith (and this will be my last response) but clearly nowhere did I say that Shenmue should continue pursuing the graphics quality and associated crazy budgets that it has strived for.

Shenmue achieves this primarily by throwing players into a hyper-realistic world that's populated by believable characters.

"Do you know where I can find Yuan?" "No I haven't." "I see." *chef's kiss*

No, but intentionally insulting said game and its creator on a fan forum sure is.

This is SHENMUE dojo, not Shenmue 3 dojo.

Please show me one review from a professional outlet that describes Shenmue 3 even half as negatively as you have.

Shenmue III Review - PSX Extreme

Pure garbage from start to finish, Shenmue 3 relies on nostalgia alone to hook you in. If you're a die-hard Shenmue fan, perhaps you will get a kick ou ...

psxextreme.com

No need. The opinions you've shared across these forums (and the fact that you have so much free time to talk about a game that you don't even like) tell me all that I need to know.

Likewise. I'm done here.

 

[SMDzero]

So completely removing one of the main sources of side content and reasons for engaging with NPCs is "ridiculous" OK. Shenmue 3 has one move that you are taught from an NPC that can be used in combat; if we agree that combat and Ryo's progression as a martial artist are core to Shenmue as a game then removing a big chunk of that is, yes, a big flaw.

Do bad games become good the more time passes?

S2 warns you before you go into the Yellowhead building and S3 before going into the Old Castle; paying attention to the story isn't the same thing as being able to read the designer's mind.

No, this would do the precise opposite and, as pointed out, you could only think this if you assume I would make 1 change and leave everything else the same.

Any event that's gated by your progress.

Your entire point was that Yamagishi should only engage with Ryo in the aftermath of Iwao's death, just not on the first day? So it should be essential to a first time playthrough that you talk to him about how much his ass hurts, but let's leave the poignant scene where he reminisces about his old friend and teaches you a useful move to easily miss-able side content. There's a reason games aren't made like this.

I almost didn't even respond to this post because it's such obvious bad faith (and this will be my last response) but clearly nowhere did I say that Shenmue should continue pursuing the graphics quality and associated crazy budgets that it has strived for.

"Do you know where I can find Yuan?" "No I haven't." "I see." *chef's kiss*

This is SHENMUE dojo, not Shenmue 3 dojo.

Shenmue III Review - PSX Extreme

Pure garbage from start to finish, Shenmue 3 relies on nostalgia alone to hook you in. If you're a die-hard Shenmue fan, perhaps you will get a kick ou ...

psxextreme.com

Likewise. I'm done here.

Seriously man, why don't you play Shenmue 3 again.

It's been 1/2 a decade give it another try.

Yes, it's not nearly as good as S2 we all know that. But for what it is (a Shenmue game made with a fraction of the budget) it's still damn good.

S3 is like the Superman 4 of the series (cut budget and 1/3rd of the content ripped out) but we can still enjoy it for what it is and aspires to be.

 

[WuyingRen]

So completely removing one of the main sources of side content and reasons for engaging with NPCs is "ridiculous" OK. Shenmue 3 has one move that you are taught from an NPC that can be used in combat; if we agree that combat and Ryo's progression as a martial artist are core to Shenmue as a game then removing a big chunk of that is, yes, a big flaw.

As you acknowledge yourself, it wasn't completely removed. There are still three instances of Ryo being taught new moves by NPCs in Shenmue 3, which is probably around the same number of moves that the average player will be taught during their first Shenmue 1 playthrough (as you keep pointing out, some of the taught moves in that game are missable). Sure, only one of those three moves can be used in combat, but the scroll moves more than make up for this. If learning new techniques is as integral to Ryo's growth as a martial artist as you seem to suggest, then Shenmue 3 actually improves over the previous two games in this area.

Do bad games become good the more time passes?

Do you take some kind of twisted enjoyment from continuing to shit on Shenmue 3 years after its release, or is your issue that you can't stand the fact that other people like it? This whole thread seems to have been another attempt to find people who share your point of view and convince everybody else that Shenmue 3 is a terrible game. It's really quite strange.

S2 warns you before you go into the Yellowhead building and S3 before going into the Old Castle; paying attention to the story isn't the same thing as being able to read the designer's mind.

When the next objective is to go to a specific location or speak to a specific person, it shouldn't take a mind reader to figure out that you won't be able to ask people how to find that location or person once you've already found them. The game literally gives you a notebook so that you can keep track of your next objective at all times. Completing those objectives is obviously going to move the story along.

No, this would do the precise opposite and, as pointed out, you could only think this if you assume I would make 1 change and leave everything else the same.

I have no idea what you'd do if given the chance. I'm not a mind reader.

Any event that's gated by your progress.

So your gripe is that time passes and the story progresses? If you're worried about missing out on events, maybe seek them out before progressing the story. It's really quite simple.

Your entire point was that Yamagishi should only engage with Ryo in the aftermath of Iwao's death, just not on the first day? So it should be essential to a first time playthrough that you talk to him about how much his ass hurts, but let's leave the poignant scene where he reminisces about his old friend and teaches you a useful move to easily miss-able side content. There's a reason games aren't made like this.

You're right. There should be a big green arrow pointing toward Yamagishi at all times and a message should pop up on the screen if you try to advance the story without talking to him. In fact, why not just have Yamagishi come to the dojo while Ryo is cradling his father's corpse and offer to teach him the move then?

Again, this all comes back to the idea of rewarding exploration rather than just spoon-feeding players "content". You clearly prefer the latter approach, and that's fine. A lot of people don't though, and I can't quite understand why that seems to bother you so much.

I almost didn't even respond to this post because it's such obvious bad faith (and this will be my last response) but clearly nowhere did I say that Shenmue should continue pursuing the graphics quality and associated crazy budgets that it has strived for.

Most people seem to be in agreement that the locations Ryo visits are one of the best things about the Shenmue franchise. Why anybody would ever want to mess with that is beyond me.

"Do you know where I can find Yuan?" "No I haven't." "I see." *chef's kiss*

Picking out a few lines of dialogue to shit on an entire franchise and dispute the point that Shenmue has believable characters? And you accuse me of arguing in bad faith?

Ignoring the fact that Shenmue 3 was originally written in Japanese and then translated into English, a few mismatched lines in a game with as much dialogue as Shenmue 3 is hardly the end of the world. I'm sure had they had a bigger budget this would have been ironed out, but it is what it is.

I dread to imagine how many Western games have mistakes in their Japanese dubs/translations. Heck, Mortal Kombat 1 had something similar and that was written in English and had an infinitely larger budget than Shenmue 3 did. Someone better call NRS and tell them that all of their characters are shit now.

This is SHENMUE dojo, not Shenmue 3 dojo.

Nobody's saying that you can't dislike Shenmue 3. By your own admission, though, you're intentionally insulting Shenmue 3 and Yu Suzuki, presumably to try to get a rise out of people, which is the very definition of trolling.

Shenmue III Review - PSX Extreme

Pure garbage from start to finish, Shenmue 3 relies on nostalgia alone to hook you in. If you're a die-hard Shenmue fan, perhaps you will get a kick ou ...

psxextreme.com

Two YouTubers who make a living by making fun of video games and the 13,391st largest gaming site in the West. This really isn't the mic drop that you thought it was.

Likewise. I'm done here.

Okay then. Nice chatting with you.

 

[iknifaugood]

I am sorry if this seems insensitive, but if your life is so busy with family, work, education, and other hobbies, how do you make time to play video games? Why is it that despite their busy lives, Shenmue fans are so passionate that they find ways to play this trilogy countless times? This is where I agree with WuyingRen about this absurd completionist mentality. Why not just play a game at your own pace?

As someone with a family, it's very hard to carve out time to play games, especially long single player games. I'm currently trying to make my way through FF16 (the game loses a lot of steam partway through) and, even though that game is seemingly designed to be played in short bursts, more often than not me and the Mrs. will opt to just watch a show or something. It's very hard for a game to remain compelling for 30+ hours when you can only play it 1-2 hours at a time off and on. I haven't even touched Tears of the Kingdom since I bought it because I can't even wrap my head around the time commitment.

A significant advantage of replaying games is a deeper understanding of the narrative and enhanced gameplay skills. How do you think all those E-Sports players and/or people who upload combo videos on YouTube became so good? When it comes to Shenmue (1999), I am glad I played it when I did. The waiting times and tank controls never bothered me. I became so immersed in this world that I felt sad leaving Yokosuka for the first time. So if I am in the minority about the first Shenmue game, so be it.

I never got good enough at Shenmue's combat to be really proficient at it, but it's really cool to see high level play on YouTube. As much as Shenmue 1 has glaring flaws to me that present themselves more and more over time, I definitely consider its rendition of Yokosuka as one of the great game worlds, particularly for its place in the story. Plus it has some of the best location music in any RPG.

I think iknifaugood really cares about Shenmue in a "tough love" sort of way. While I do not agree with all their opinions, the passion is evident. To me, apathy is worse than criticism, even if it is towards something we cherish.

I wholeheartedly agree with that assessment.

I apologize for being pedantic, but the Shenmue III Kickstarter money is in the ballpark of 4.6 to 5.1 million after backer rewards and Kickstarter fees. Thank you guys for this interesting discussion.

This is true. Having run a successful KS, I can attest to what a pain in the ass it can be. Say it with me: no physical rewards!

S3 is like the Superman 4 of the series (cut budget and 1/3rd of the content ripped out) but we can still enjoy it for what it is and aspires to be.

This actually made me laugh out loud (in a good way). I’m not trying to convince anyone who likes S3 to not like S3, only that it’s flaws and over ambitions can’t be ignored if the series is to continue and hopefully thrive. I'm sure I'll play S3 again at some point, but I have FF16, Rebirth, Spider-Man 2 and God of War 2 to get through first.

 

[SPG]

I had to park TOTK as well for the same reasons. How the fuck can you play that game unless you have all the spare time in the world? Totally incompatible with parenthood.

 

[Seaman]

People, you have to take something in consideration. Iknifaugood is videogame designer. And like every creative designer (let it be graphic, sound, whatever) they don't disconnect. Never. Their eye isn't the same than us when comes to experiencing something related to their field.
And while you learn A LOT from their views, they're also sometimes "unsufferable". Saying this totally without ill intention and I bet Iknifaugood is smirking reading this because probably he has been told this by some friend. Like, mate lets play this game without the tech audiocommentary.
Now, I can also add that he has more common ground with every us than it initially could seem. He is reasonable to a fair extent, open to agree in disagreeing and that he just wants to shake things a little (making communities go in "crisis" can result in positive things).
The heat of debate often creates bold statements that really aren't sustained the day after sleeping over it. For example, I thought that the whole "intention of insulting" was a typo and even if not being that the case... He really didn't insulted the game (calling it for example "garbage" or similar) neither its creator (who specifically pointed sympathy).
Lets give the main OP a rest and from now on lets try to behave like if we were sharing pizza in real life.

 

[iknifaugood]

The heat of debate often creates bold statements that really aren't sustained the day after sleeping over it. For example, I thought that the whole "intention of insulting" was a typo and even if not being that the case... He really didn't insulted the game (calling it for example "garbage" or similar) neither its creator (who specifically pointed sympathy).

Just to clarify: by "I intend for my comments to be insulting to S3", I mean that when I say the game is bad and I talk about what's wrong with it, I understand that I'm being insulting (I'm certainly not paying the game a compliment by saying that), though I don't think I've insulted Suzuki except to say that I think S3 is bad.

 

[SMDzero]

As someone with a family, it's very hard to carve out time to play games, especially long single player games. I'm currently trying to make my way through FF16 (the game loses a lot of steam partway through) and, even though that game is seemingly designed to be played in short bursts, more often than not me and the Mrs. will opt to just watch a show or something. It's very hard for a game to remain compelling for 30+ hours when you can only play it 1-2 hours at a time off and on. I haven't even touched Tears of the Kingdom since I bought it because I can't even wrap my head around the time commitment.

I never got good enough at Shenmue's combat to be really proficient at it, but it's really cool to see high level play on YouTube. As much as Shenmue 1 has glaring flaws to me that present themselves more and more over time, I definitely consider its rendition of Yokosuka as one of the great game worlds, particularly for its place in the story. Plus it has some of the best location music in any RPG.

I wholeheartedly agree with that assessment.

This is true. Having run a successful KS, I can attest to what a pain in the ass it can be. Say it with me: no physical rewards!

This actually made me laugh out loud (in a good way). I’m not trying to convince anyone who likes S3 to not like S3, only that it’s flaws and over ambitions can’t be ignored if the series is to continue and hopefully thrive. I'm sure I'll play S3 again at some point, but I have FF16, Rebirth, Spider-Man 2 and God of War 2 to get through first.

To continue the Superman analogy S3 is also a lot like The Donner Cut of Superman 2 (a never gonna happen pipe-dream miraculously realized by the fans constantly pushing but ultimately a low budget 1/2 finished project that could never live up to decades of built up expectations).

I think so much of Shenmue 3 is solid and if it had more budget than it could have had a lot more cutscenes (i.e. story).

You haven’t played Ragnorak or Spider-Man 2 yet, but those games have an ABUNDANCE of quality cutscenes with super high production values at every single turn. I just wish that Shenmue 3 had just a few -JUST A FEW- of those so that the story could have been so much more exciting but…. budget.

Hopefully the video game market crashes and burns and AA gaming rises from the ashes and games like Shenmue can be made.

 

[Seaman]

Just to clarify: by "I intend for my comments to be insulting to S3", I mean that when I say the game is bad and I talk about what's wrong with it, I understand that I'm being insulting (I'm certainly not paying the game a compliment by saying that), though I don't think I've insulted Suzuki except to say that I think S3 is bad.

I don't think that necesarily means you're insulting. Is more on the way of saying it which I think is also correct despite not finding myself agreeing with. Its just disruptive.
About Suzuki, you never called him names like i've seen elsewhere (i.e. goofball). Even if we're at different sides around the issues, you're good to me.
A thing I know for sure is that if we finally get S4 it won't fully lean -design related- towards any of the people praising or critisizing S3.
And of course, even if S4 gets the majority of us in a positive concensus, there will be always people moaning. Specially these days where you can read for boycott Capcom due not having RE3 Remake Jill with skirt.

 

[SMDzero]

I don't think that necesarily means you're insulting. Is more on the way of saying it which I think is also correct despite now finding myself agreeing with. Its just disruptive.
About Suzuki, you never called him names like i've seen elsewhere (i.e. goofball). Even if we're at different sides around the issues, you're good to me.
A thing I know for sure is that if we finally get S4 it won't fully lean -design related- towards any of the people praising or critisizing S3.
And of course, even if S4 gets the majority of us in a positive concensus, there will be always people moaning. Specially these days where you can read for boycott Capcom due not having RE3 Remake Jill with skirt.

We also have to appreciate that Shenmue is Yu Suzuki’s life work so to insult Shenmue is kinda insulting YS.

However I do think it rings hollow when people plead for Shenmue to be made as a favor to YS so he can finish his life’s work.

Let’s face it, we Shenmue fans want Shenmue because WE want Shenmue.

 

[Seaman]

We also have to appreciate that Shenmue is Yu Suzuki’s life work so to insult Shenmue is kinda insulting YS.

It could be, with caution on the "kinda" though. Because going with these between lines reading instead of what is literally said is slippery ramp and where is the floor? "Yu Suzuki is a key figure in japanese game industry so insulting Shenmue is kinda insult the Japan videogame industry." And this wouldn't be true, just us being over sensitive.
It all depends on the tone and thats usually hard to grasp in written form. Anyways I didn't feel any red lines crossed and those most sensitive claims were in the heat of discussion.
I don't like reading harsh comments on Shenmue either but at the same time I do it out of morbid curiosity and even fascination.

However I do think it rings hollow when people plead for Shenmue to be made as a favor to YS so he can finish his life’s work.

Let’s face it, we Shenmue fans want Shenmue because WE want Shenmue.

I can't speak for everybody and its easy to check that some prefer Shenmue-manga, others anime, others novel form... And 99'9% of them aren't lesser of Shenmue fan.

Spoiler

There's just one case that is imo incredibly biased but let keep manners and avoid public mention (its not Iknifaugood).

But in my case I really want Shenmue in the terms set by Yu Suzuki, with the less of pressure possible. If eventually he says "I ran out of time. There won't be Shenmue as I envision and hence decided to dismiss any other form of presentation. No book no nothing." I will endorse it with a mix of "Sigh... damn & Bravo!". Whats been already done will still be there. However Im also carried by this post as one movement and in my guts exists the idea that someone will grab the glove, we will get Shenmue 4 and there will be yet more praise and moan.

 

[HazukiSensei88]

I don't really get the 'they ran out of budget so couldn't make a compelling ending' argument. It's not like they make games in the order you play it and ran out of money so had to rush the end. Its not like a tv series being filmed in sequence. Surely the ending and how you tie up the plot would be one of the first things you script and create?

 

[iknifaugood]

To continue the Superman analogy S3 is also a lot like The Donner Cut of Superman 2 (a never gonna happen pipe-dream miraculously realized by the fans constantly pushing but ultimately a low budget 1/2 finished project that could never live up to decades of built up expectations).

This is an interesting way to think about it and I fully understand that some people were simply happy with S3 from the KS; but I never viewed S3 as the goal in and of itself, rather the revival/continuation of the series as a whole. The Donner Cut of Superman 2 was always just meant to give fans a taste of what might have been, not to revive that particular version of Superman with future sequels. That honor belongs to Superman Returns, which might actually be a better point of comparison to S3 as far as Superman movies go (though the budget is obviously a very different thing).

You haven’t played Ragnorak or Spider-Man 2 yet, but those games have an ABUNDANCE of quality cutscenes with super high production values at every single turn. I just wish that Shenmue 3 had just a few -JUST A FEW- of those so that the story could have been so much more exciting but…. budget.

Obviously S3 doesn't have cutscenes on part with $100M+ productions, however I'm not one of those people that thinks that S3 has terrible cutscene direction (I actually think most of the proper cutscenes are very competent); my issue is almost entirely with the content of the cutscenes. For instance, why do we have two bombastic chases through Niaowu, easily on par in terms of complexity with anything in S2, with random thugs? If the budget is tight, those QTEs should be on things that matter, but then the game itself needs to be about things that matter.

This scene in S2 of Ryo dispatching 4 goons isn't "better directed" than any of the action scenes in S3, but the sequence itself is better from a conceptual POV and that's what most people take issue with. S3 has a very similar sequence in its ending, but instead of Ryo taking out random CYM guards (who he's already beaten multiple of), he's taking out seemingly cool looking bodyguards with relative ease and a weirdly comedic tone (even Ren gets to kick one). That's the kind of thing that leaves people utterly baffled. There are lots of deeply weird, intentional decisions like this all over S3.

even if S4 gets the majority of us in a positive concensus, there will be always people moaning. Specially these days where you can read for boycott Capcom due not having RE3 Remake Jill with skirt.

This is true but the majority of criticism behind S3 (at least that I've seen) isn't really like this. It's actually sad because in the wake of S3, many fans no longer care about the future of the series, which is crazy given the outpouring of love that the KS got. I don't remember anyone playing even the worst RE game and then giving up on the series. But then again, even the worst selling mainline RE game (Code Veronica) sold about as much as the best selling Shenmue game on the same console (more than twice as much when you include the ports), so it's not like the series was ever at risk of dying.

I don't think that necesarily means you're insulting.

I was saying this in the context of @WuyingRen saying that a novel would provide a more immersive experience than a low budget 2D game, which I said was insulting to indie game designers (and the vast majority of game devs who don't work with AAA or even AA budgets). I was giving him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't intend to make such an insult (which I'm assuming he didn't, he just meant as it pertains to Shenmue games), whereas when I say that S3 is bad, I intend to say just that. Believe me, I would much rather be saying that S3 was a great game and hypothesizing about all the cool story revelations and wondering what Suzuki will do with the massive AAA budget he has for S4; but we don't live in that timeline.