How I Would "Fix" Shenmue 3's Story

[iknifaugood]

He said at least 5. Wrapping it up with S4 would leave us with a lot of missing content and story beats and look at the outcry after S3 did that.

https://www.polygon.com/2015/6/20/8818097/shenmue-3-story-11-chapters-kickstarter-yu-suzuki

Granted this was before the release of S3, which he stated only takes us to 40%, but it's anyone's guess how he intended to wrap it up in 1 more game under ideal circumstances. If I had to guess I would say he considers Shenmue 1 to be Chapter 1, Shenmue 2 to be Chapters 2-4, and Shenmue 3 to be the rest of Chapter 4-5: 5/11 = 45%. But this still leaves a ton of questions (he said that S3 would cover the most story of all the games, was Baisha Chapter 6 or did that get moved to Chapter 5, have any of the chapters been cut since they're going to the Cliff Temple, not Baisha next? etc.) Even by this math that would mean that, at a minimum, both remaining Shenmue games would need more content than S2 (3 full chapters apiece) to tell the whole story. I really wish that Suzuki would clear this up and address whether or not he was content to let the anime finish the story.

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but S3 did not receive criticism because it was missing story content; it was because it was lacking story content.

 

[Sonoshee]

Also, not to beat a dead horse, but S3 did not receive criticism because it was missing story content; it was because it was lacking story content.

That's kinda the same thing.

And there's absolutely no way he could satisfactorily finish the story up in just one more game. Isn't going to happen.

I remember Yu saying he needed $20 million for S4. Which seemed odd, given that he had all the tools in place to make development easier. Maybe the $20m was really to get a majority of the remaining story chapters completed, with S5 picking up the remainder.

 

[iknifaugood]

That's kinda the same thing.

What I mean is that the issue isn't that story was cut (ie: Baisha); it's that what's there is fundamentally lacking (ie: characters aren't established and lack personality, weird repeated info and continuity issues etc.). Basically it's the kind of stuff that more would not fix.

And there's absolutely no way he could satisfactorily finish the story up in just one more game. Isn't going to happen.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just pointing out that Suzuki said he could do it in 4. It's possible that he thought that S3 would be able to cover more ground but even with the farthest stretch goals, S3 was never meant to move beyond Baisha and iirc they said that the story content of Baisha was moved to the castle section (which I assume means the fight with Lan Di).

Also fwiw I do think that the series could wrap up in one game but it would have to be a more traditional RPG experience (which seems to be the direction that Suzuki is trending toward) and give up a lot of the superfluous size and detail that Shenmue has that doesn't really contribute to the storytelling. Even with S3 as a blueprint, getting a game that's bigger than S2 (let alone 2 games!) is unrealistic both as a fan and as a developer.

 

[Sonoshee]

What I mean is that the issue isn't that story was cut (ie: Baisha); it's that what's there is fundamentally lacking (ie: characters aren't established and lack personality, weird repeated info and continuity issues etc.). Basically it's the kind of stuff that more would not fix.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just pointing out that Suzuki said he could do it in 4. It's possible that he thought that S3 would be able to cover more ground but even with the farthest stretch goals, S3 was never meant to move beyond Baisha and iirc they said that the story content of Baisha was moved to the castle section (which I assume means the fight with Lan Di).

Also fwiw I do think that the series could wrap up in one game but it would have to be a more traditional RPG experience (which seems to be the direction that Suzuki is trending toward) and give up a lot of the superfluous size and detail that Shenmue has that doesn't really contribute to the storytelling. Even with S3 as a blueprint, getting a game that's bigger than S2 (let alone 2 games!) is unrealistic both as a fan and as a developer.

Contributing to the storytelling or not, I don't think there's any way you could have a Shenmue game without size and detail. That's a big part of the franchise's DNA. S4 could re-use a lot of S3's assets, so the brunt of the budget would go to fleshing out story and cinematics. I wouldn't be happy seeing S4 as the final game because we've come so far these last two decades to just sit back and accept that now. I really do believe we can get a Shenmue 4 with both story and scope in equal measure, Shenmue 3 laid the groundwork so that hopefully S4 & 5 can fly.
AFAIK, Baisha was cut because of time and resources, so they put the Shenhua kidnapping/Lan Di show down in Niaowu.
I would personally put this down to Deep Silver wanting to get the game out of the door and not wanting to fund an extra six months to one year worth of development time. Everyone has been vocal about how unfinished some areas seem (especially NPCs) and I feel that is why - Yu didn't get the time or money he and his team needed to really finish it.

 

[iknifaugood]

Contributing to the storytelling or not, I don't think there's any way you could have a Shenmue game without size and detail. That's a big part of the franchise's DNA.

This really depends on what you mean. Shenmue has always had big environments as a kind of flex from a graphics perspective. In both S1 and S2, you can complete the game without even entering most of the interior spaces available to Ryo, but those interiors still needed to be modeled and textured to an extremely high quality for the time. S3 seems acutely aware of this and so it requires Ryo to bounce around far more of these places and engage in far more of the minigames as part of the core gameplay. It seems that S3 was designed backwards in this way, meaning that it placed an emphasis on making the big environments with tons of NPCs and minigames and a long playtime first and then had to fit the game to that standard.

IMO this is the wrong approach. A compelling breadcrumb trail designed around the needs of the story should be designed first, and the gameplay environments should be tailored to that storyline. I don't think we need the already tight budget being used on buildings the player never needs to enter, nor bending over backwards finding tangential excuses to force the player to enter them.

I wouldn't be happy seeing S4 as the final game because we've come so far these last two decades to just sit back and accept that now.

But what if it was really good? lol

AFAIK, Baisha was cut because of time and resources, so they put the Shenhua kidnapping/Lan Di show down in Niaowu.
I would personally put this down to Deep Silver wanting to get the game out of the door and not wanting to fund an extra six months to one year worth of development time.

I just mean that, in terms of story, Baisha was either always considered to be part of Chapter 5 or it was considered Chapter 6 and it's been cut, which should bring the total down to 10 but who knows?

 

[Seaman]

But what if it was really good? lol

I think very similar here XD

About the scope of size and details, its true that what YS ultimately seeks is detail even compromising size. If he gets his desired level of detail, and it means reducing scenarios that's what will get done and not the other way around. Same reasons for cutting areas in S1&2.

I believe that Shenmue gets comprensible (specially for newcomers) wrongly cited as big sized, what really is very well arranged and with lots of replay value. The details, layout of levels, sounds, missable scenes that usually requires different playthrougs to new players make it feel overwhelming.
This titles gets usually percieved as big but its more an illusion through high detail (at least thats my conclusion after lots of playthrougs, which still not totally validates my affirmation). The indoors its a nice example of that trick.
This isn't a demeanish, on the other side: its a praise to wise design and skills.
Im also in the mindset that Shenmue 4 will care more for how/the way we get from A to B, instead of caring about how long we will get us to reach our goal.

 

[Sonoshee]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Seaman]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I wasn't engraving on stone what I said, is just my personal conclusion. What I meant was that once you know where to go, who to talk and all needed to advance it results smaller than initially thought. Always open to disagree tho

 

[GeordieBoySteve]

I’d scrap the Niao Sun is Li Feng plot twist altogether as well as the existence of the second Shenmue tree.

I think the Li Feng/Niao-sun element is to represent yin/yang. As Li Feng, she is benevolent - soft, kind and considerate. This is why most of her scenes are with small children to show her as a caring and motherly figure. As Niao-sun, she is manipulative, calculated and deadly.

 

[Seaman]

I think the Li Feng/Niao-sun element is to represent yin/yang. As Li Feng, she is benevolent - soft, kind and considerate. This is why most of her scenes are with small children to show her as a caring and motherly figure. As Niao-sun, she is manipulative, calculated and deadly.

Agreed. Furthermore, and for obvious reasons, Ying-yang is present in other character pairs and even conceptually at gameplay parts. Philosophy was applied to an extent that reached development itself.

 

[BruceWayne911]

Shenmue 3 story doesn't need to be fixed. Shenmue was a victim of the assets and resources that were available. If Shenmue 3 had standard AAA funding it would have been a more complete experience.

 

[SteveT90]

Making the story progress would of helped

 

[Sonoshee]

Making the story progress would of helped

The story did progress.

 

[spud1897]

Making the story progress would of helped

While the execution is certainly left to be desried this is what does happen:

• Ryo meets 2 masters who knew his father.
• Gets Ema from temple to his mother.
• Loses the Phoenix Mirror.
• Niao Sun Screws over Lan Di.
• Ryo loses to Lan Di - recognised he has got better though.
• They likely know where the treasure is - ending + scroll from Elder Yeh which is in the Shenmue Online trailers.

 

[SteveT90]

yeah that’s all that happens after 40 hours of gambling and punching a wooden dummy.

I’ll always love 1&2 , but 3 is just a daily grind

 

[spud1897]

yeah that’s all that happens after 40 hours of gambling and punching a wooden dummy.

I’ll always love 1&2 , but 3 is just a daily grind

All that happens.....

Shenmue 1
Father Dies
Find Mirrors
Forklifts
Leave
End

After 25 hours of waiting around and doing what?
 
I could easily go down that route with all 3 games.

Let me add I am over simplifying to make a point.

Shenmue 3 plays exactly like a Shenmue game would have done back then. But anyone would concede the story execution isn't on the level of the others. Despite that is it not a major plot change with Ryo losing the mirrors or Niao Sun trying to kill Lan Di?

But then this killed the series right.... or is it people discouraging others from making their own minds up killing the series??

 

[SteveT90]

It plays nothing like a shenmue game .. it’s more grindy purely to add hours on to the game , the fighting is designed for 5 year olds and the constant wasting money on food for health just ruins it further

An absolute stinking game does nothing for the series let’s be honest , discouraging others for making up their minds? It seems to be you must agree 3 is the best game ever made and no one is allowed to be critical of this ‘masterpiece’

 

[Sonoshee]

Not sure where anyone said it was a "masterpiece"? Now you're just putting words into our mouths.
Being critical is fine, but it's nothing that hasn't already been said a thousand times over by other members. And it's not even a constructive criticism. You're not even saying what you'd have preferred instead of what we got. You're just trashing it with words reminiscent of a 13 year old kid.

 

[spud1897]

It plays nothing like a shenmue game .. it’s more grindy purely to add hours on to the game , the fighting is designed for 5 year olds and the constant wasting money on food for health just ruins it further

An absolute stinking game does nothing for the series let’s be honest , discouraging others for making up their minds? It seems to be you must agree 3 is the best game ever made and no one is allowed to be critical of this ‘masterpiece’

It actually does. The addition of stamina, food and training tied to progress aside which I can appreciate is a change. It has money barriers like Shenmue 2 as well. At it's core its go round, get clues, fight, progress story, end. Same as the others. Also granted the 2 moves are similar in 3 but isn't learning a move to take down a big boss exactly what happened in 2?

If you actually read my comment you would note that I've said the story content lacks the execution of the other 2. Also you've not answered my point re the ending of 3. Is it not a major change?

The fighting system lacks polish and throws but is fine. The biggest issue is its tutorial or lack of one + there is some input lag but once you get to grips it's perfectly serviceable.

Also the stamina system... get rid. Awful decision. Change the economy for actual gambling rather than trying to appease a specific market which you didn't release in.

Also if it's so bad then why did it review at an average of 7/10? Which is about where fan reviews put it and I would. So where did I state its the greatest game ever? Sounds like moving the goalposts rather than engaging a counter discussion.

You will also note the amount of constructive discussion on this forum re Shenmue 3 which is welcomed.

You're welcome to not like the game but don't pretend it's as bad as you're making it out to be. Metrics and general feeling prove otherwise.

 

[~ ひかり ~]

"Shenmue III has no Story"
"Shenmue III did not progressed the story"
"Shenmue III is filler"
"Shenmue III has only 20 minutes of story"


People can dislike Shenmue III all they want i just never understood these comments, i respect the opinions i just don't agree.

What happened in Shenmue III? off the top of my head I'll try to remember most of the things that happened in Shenmue III, I already apologize if anything gets out of order or if i forget something, to do everything in order i will need to watch again some cutcenes and gameplay of the game, i will not do that now but i have plans to make a blog post about this topic.

~ What happened in Shenmue III? ~
​

. Ryo got out of the cave with Shenhua and with the Sword of seven stars after reading a letter that Shenhua’s father left for her, he also left the Sword of Seven stars.

. Shenhua and Ryo talking, Shenhua is worried about her father Yunshen Yuan, her father is missing

. Ryo and Shenhua try to pass the Verdant Bridge and discover that there are thugs in the village

. Ryo and Shenhua start to search for more informations in Bailu Village about Shenhua's father

. While Ryo and Shenhua search for her father Ryo got to meet many important people in the village like
Elder Yeh, the other stonemansons, Grandmaster Feng and Master Sun that even knew Iwao

. While Ryo and Shenhua search for her father Ryo started to live with Shenhua like a second
home to him, he doesn't have to pay to stay and even have a room for him.

. Chai is in the shadows in Bailu village probably searching for the Phoenix Mirror.

. Ryo gets the Ema that Iwao did for Akane (Ryo's Mother) and it was in Shenmue III that her name was revealed.

. In this new moment of his life Ryo and Shenhua have many conversations, especially night conversations, in
this conversations we got to know more about Bailu Village, more about Ryo and Shenhua, in one of the conversations
Shenhua say to Ryo that she have vivid dreams where she is in a city where the emperor and empress once lived, that
she was just a baby and they spoke her name.

Shenhua also said that it feels like she lived a thousand birthdays.

. In this conversations Ryo and Shenhua got closer and now their bond is stronger. Now Ryo is important for Shenhua and Shenhua is important for Ryo, in Shenmue III Ryo even tells for Shenhua the story about how he got his brown leather jacket.

. I even saw Ryo being more open to talk and share his life with Shenhua, in the first game his distant, Nozomi
is worried about him but he is distant to Nozomi and also with other characters, with Shenhua we see that Ryo is starting to be more open to have more conversations about his life, and he even smile and laugh sometimes in the conversations, to me this shows that meeting Shenhua really have an impact in Ryo's life.

. Ryo lost to Yanlang

. Ryo starts to train with Master Sun

. Ryo learns more about the origins of the verdant bridge and the origins of the mirrors, we even got flashbacks
about the time when Master Sun and other characters were kids, an important flashback about when someone that
worked for the emperor was in Bailu Village especially to ask for the mirrors to be createad.

. Ryo learns the important bajiquan move Body Check

. Ryo defeat Yanlang and showed that he is improving as a martial artist

. In the interrogation scene it looks like Shenhua used one of her powers in Yanlang but we are not sure about what she did to him.

. Ryo and Shenhua go to the Elders Yeh's house but now i forgot the reason

. Ryo and Shenhua get up to the bell tower

. Ryo use the sword of the seven stars

. There Ryo and Shenhua found a mysterious scroll

. Ryo and Shenhua show the mysterious scroll to Elder Yeh and as far as i remember we learn more about the mirrors/treasure and what to do next.

. Chai tried to steal the scroll, Ryo together with Shenhua defeat Chai and got important informations, Ryo and Shenhua need to go to Niaowu, Shenhua's father is in Niaowu.

. Ryo and Shenhua go to Niaowu

. Arriving in Niaowu Ryo look at a mysterious woman at the boat, Feng Li.

. Ryo and Shenhua continue their search for Shenhua's father, now the search for him is in Niaowu

. The mysterious woman Feng Li appears sometimes in Niaowu and even talk with Ryo.

. Ryo encounters Ren again

. Ryo met Shiling Lin, Qiu Hsu and Grandmaster Bei

. Ryo have interactions and conversations with these characters, could have been better and with more development for these characters but Ryo made new friends in Niaowu.

. Ryo and Shenhua night conversations in Niaowu Hotel.

. Ryo and Ren try to defeat Longqi Ge but Longqi Ge won, i don't remember now the reasons for Ryo to fight against Longqi Ge.

. Ryo learns with Grandmaster Bei the important bajiquan move Reverse body Check
Body check and Reverse Body Check are not the same move, the Virtua Fighter games are a proof that this moves are not the same, i will even make a blog post about these moves someday.

The mysterious woman show her true intentions and kidnapped Shenhua, she wants the phoenix mirror,

. The mysterious woman is Niao Sun, one of the leaders of The Chi You Men, an important character for the story.

. Ryo, Ren, Shilin Ling, Qiu Hsu and Grandmaster Bei go to the fortified castle to save Shenhua

. Ryo gave the Phoenix Mirror to Niao Sun and saved Shenhua, Ryo really lost the phoenix mirror

. Ryo saved Yunshen Yuan, since the beggining of the game Ryo and Shenhua were searching for him and now
Ryo finally saved Shenhua's father.

. Ryo fights with Longqi Ge again but now this time Ryo won, showing more progress as a martial artist

. Niao Sun betrayed Lan Di and set the fortified castle on fire

. Ryo encounters Lan Di and fights against 2 Lan Di's allies

. Ryo won and show that he is improving as a martial artist and even Lan Di recognised that Ryo has got better

. Ryo VS Lan Di (The First Real Fight) Ryo show that he is improving but is not enough, Lan Di won the fight

. Ryo, Ren and the others escaped the castle.

. Ryo, Shenhua, her father and Ren leave Niaowu.

In the boat Ryo have an important conversation with Yunshen Yuan (Shenhua's Father)

. In this conversation we even learned that after Sunming Zhao died Longsun Zhao (Lan Di) was raised by The Chi You Men, this was an important revelation in my opinion, her father said this information and as far as i remember about the cliff temple.

. In the ending we see Ryo, Shenhua and Ren walking what it looks like the great wall.

. The ending showed that now Ren is travelling with Ryo and Shenhua, now is a trio, also the ending showed that the
trio is probably going to the cliff temple.

I will probably do a blog post about this subject someday with more details and in the order about how everything
happened in the game.

The execution of some parts could have been better? yeah, but to say that nothing happened in the game? say that the story has not progressed at all? i really don't agree.

Shenmue III is similar to the first game about the pacing, things in Shenmue III happen in a slow way similar to the first game, Ryo and Shenhua search for her father the entire game and this is one of the main parts of the story of the game, Ryo saved him in the final moments.

Shenmue III to me is a slow pace game similar to the first game, Shenmue III is similar to the first game in many ways and i love that it is this way, now for Shenmue IV i believe Yu Suzuki will make a game similar to Shenmue II.