Will Open World Harm Shenmue 3?

[DigitalDuck]

They only seem random in the same way cutscenes seem random in any game. Not sure what you're trying to get at here

I'm trying to say that Shenmue has everything RPGs have; sidequests, levelling, "random" battles, even a floor-based dungeon (Yellow Head Bldg.). They've never been implemented in a way that screams "this is a game", it's always been immersive to the Shenmue world.

I wouldn't be concerned about the introduction of another feature RPGs have - it'll probably be implemented in a similar way to the already existing features.

 

[Zoyous]

I don't know, it seems like a stretch to say Shenmue has random battles. When I think random battles I think: I'm walking along and every minute or two I'm sucked into an unavoidable battle with a low-level enemy. They are interruptions of the exploration, they happen in random places (or the same places with a randomized likelihood of happening) and they don't advance the story in any meaningful way, they're more related to grinding for stats. So if that occurred in Shenmue, you couldn't walk from one end of Dobuita to the other without getting into a couple of fights.

 

[Kodama]

LLOL this topic... 100gb world and random battles cmon....

 

[RyoHazuki84]

The Yakuza battles, as much as I love them, just feel so unrealistic. I doubt they’ll be there in Shenmue. I’m sure the fights will happen orangically and not be force. Still, taking part in a street fight for money is still good

 

[orient]

It's because Yakuza is a JPRG so it has all the genre trappings that make no sense when placed in a realistic context, like random battles, consuming items to instantly increase your health, and performing fetch-quests to gain experience points.

None of this stuff would make sense in a game as grounded and deliberate as Shenmue. I'm simply not buying that it has all the components of a JPRG. I could make the argument that Shenmue has the components of a survival horror game if I wanted to.

Shenmue is more akin to a point and click adventure game in 3D. You're trying to solve a mystery by talking to people, hunting for clues, and objects that get added to your inventory. Many point and click games have combat in set points throughout the game (with move/spell stats that can be upgraded), as well as side activities/mini-games.

What I'm saying is, Shenmue has more in common with something like Snatcher and other Japanese adventure games than it does Dragon Quest.

 

[DigitalDuck]

It's because Yakuza is a JPRG so it has all the genre trappings that make no sense when placed in a realistic context, like random battles, consuming items to instantly increase your health, and performing fetch-quests to gain experience points.

None of this stuff would make sense in a game as grounded and deliberate as Shenmue. I'm simply not buying that it has all the components of a JPRG. I could make the argument that Shenmue has the components of a survival horror game if I wanted to.

Please do. We both know this argument wouldn't hold up nearly as well.

The only reason the things you say make no sense when placed in a realistic context is that you talk directly about the mechanics - the way it affects the numbers. Fights occurring out of nowhere, eating to stay healthy, and earning experience through menial tasks are all very realistic things. In fact, they've all occurred multiple times within my own life!

The implementation of them is what makes it unrealistic in Yakuza and other such games. They're implemented in a much more realistic way in Shenmue, but the fact is they're still there. You may as well say that Shenmue doesn't have combat because when you punch an enemy you don't see a number pop out of them telling you how much damage the punch did.

I mean, imagine making this argument:

"When I think sidequests I think of having a part of the menu that lists all of my ongoing tasks and it lets me set a waypoint to where I need to go. Shenmue doesn't have that menu or a waypoint, therefore it doesn't have sidequests."

Just because it's not done in the same way as other games, doesn't mean it's an entirely different thing.

 

[orient]

The only reason the things you say make no sense when placed in a realistic context is that you talk directly about the mechanics - the way it affects the numbers.

Of course I'm talking about mechanics. What else would I be talking about?

Your argument is completely semantic. Saying Shenmue has random battles because technically the battles in the game "feel" random is a completely semantic argument -- it doesn't take into account how random battles actually work in games, and how a single mechanic like this can completely change the feel of a game.

Of course eating to stay healthy and gaining experience in RPGs is based in reality...I know how life works. What I'm saying is, the way in which Shenmue deals with these things is very different to how they're handled in JRPGs.

And no, I'd never argue that Shenmue doesn't have combat just because numbers don't fly out -- that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[DigitalDuck]

Of course I'm talking about mechanics. What else would I be talking about?

The dynamics, aesthetics, and general purpose of such features, of course. But that's beside the point:

Your argument is completely semantic. Saying Shenmue has random battles because technically the battles in the game "feel" random is a completely semantic argument -- it doesn't take into account how random battles actually work in games, and how a single mechanic like this can completely change the feel of a game.

It's not a semantic argument, though.

The extra fights in Shenmue serve exactly the same role as random battles; they are fights that appear, with no effect or importance to the story, in order to provide more action and/or challenge when going from A to B. In some cases they make your character stronger too.

As a designer you wouldn't add traditional random battles in Shenmue III because you already have Shenmue-style "random" battles in the Shenmue series; as such, those worrying about having traditional random battles in Shenmue III have unfounded concerns.

Just like you shouldn't expect task lists and waypoints to appear or a status screen after every battle with XP gains shown; it doesn't mean that Shenmue doesn't have sidequests or levelling - it means that Shenmue handles these things differently, and because it already handles these things it's silly to worry about seeing task lists, waypoints, and status screens appearing.

Of course eating to stay healthy and gaining experience in RPGs is based in reality...I know how life works. What I'm saying is, the way in which Shenmue deals with these things is very different to how they're handled in JRPGs.

But that's what I'm saying too. Why are we arguing?

And no, I'd never argue that Shenmue doesn't have combat just because numbers don't fly out -- that makes no sense whatsoever.

But that's how it's typically handled in JRPGs... or is it that, in fact, it's not about the exact mechanics, and the implementation of something can change from game to game without it being a completely different thing?


TL;DR: The Enoki fights (among a few others) are Shenmue's version of random battles: they're optional, they add nothing to the story, there is no indication that they will happen before they do (and no reason to specifically go where they are), and merely exist to provide a bit more of the punching stuff and occasionally level up your character. Because Shenmue already has an implementation of random battles, Shenmue III won't add traditional JRPG random encounters, because it'd be silly to have it done in two different ways at the same time.

 

[Zoyous]

While we're stretching the definitions of established gameplay mechanics beyond all recognition, we might as well say that Pac-Man has Pac-Man-style random battles while exploring dungeons; acquires Pac-Man-style Exp (a.k.a. points) by eating dots and ghosts; levels up by eating power pellets...

 

[orient]

We're saying the exact same thing, the only difference is I don't think Shenmue's battles can be equated to random battles in any way, shape or form.

In Shenmue, almost every battle has a narrative purpose. They're there to serve the story, not to level your character. Unlike JPRGs, leveling your moves is incidental to the core of the game; it's not required at all to proceed.

The entire point of random battles is to level your character(s) appropriately throughout the game and to place a persistent obstacle between you and your current goal. You then have the option of grinding to mitigate the game's challenge. This "just keep playing and you'll eventually be strong enough to beat the game" is an essential concept in JRPGs and it does not translate to Shenmue in any way. The only way to effectively "grind" in Shenmue is through training, and training is neither necessary nor random...unless you're going to tell me it is in fact random because the allure of an empty parking lot is random within the player's mind...?

 

[DigitalDuck]

While we're stretching the definitions of established gameplay mechanics beyond all recognition, we might as well say that Pac-Man has Pac-Man-style random battles while exploring dungeons; acquires Pac-Man-style Exp (a.k.a. points) by eating dots and ghosts; levels up by eating power pellets...

Do those "random battles" interrupt another form of gameplay? Do they make your character stronger? Does it serve the same purpose as the random battle system found in other games?

Does that "exp" make the character stronger? Are the power pellets permanent, or are they merely temporary powerups? Does it serve the same purpose as EXP in other games?

You're missing the point, and I suspect you're doing it deliberately.

In Shenmue, almost every battle has a narrative purpose. They're there to serve the story, not to level your character. Unlike JPRGs, leveling your moves is incidental to the core of the game; it's not required at all to proceed.

The entire point of random battles is to level your character(s) appropriately throughout the game and to place a persistent obstacle between you and your current goal. You then have the option of grinding to mitigate the game's challenge. This "just keep playing and you'll eventually be strong enough to beat the game" is an essential concept in JRPGs and it does not translate to Shenmue in any way. The only way to effectively "grind" in Shenmue is through training, and training is neither necessary nor random...unless you're going to tell me it is in fact random because the allure of an empty parking lot is random within the player's mind...?

I don't agree that the point of random battles is to level characters - while they can be used for that, their main use is to provide additional challenge/distraction while exploring. I don't believe that replacing it with (say) a designated challenge area would fulfill the requirements of random battles. Additionally, levelling is not always required in JRPGs - Earthbound has an interesting take on it, for example.

However, whether or not it's the main point of random battles, it is an important feature - and levelling up your character in Shenmue is not done primarily through its "random battles". If Shenmue's battles were to be a suitable replacement for random battles, it would be possible to use them to improve your stats, whereas in practice they're near-useless for that and training is much more effective.

So I'll concede that Shenmue's battles are not random battles.

 

[orient]

I'm glad we could work things out Good discussion

 

[RyoHazuki84]

I get why the fights work in Yakuza, but in real life, you’re not going to get into random fights in any red light district in Japan. I have been to Kabukicho many times, and the closest times I got into fights were Nigerian touts trying to get me into their bars.

I don’t think country side China should be portrayed the same, and I agree the fights should come in a narrative context, and not just randomly just because some punk wants to pick a fight.

 

[SliverOfSand]

I get why the fights work in Yakuza, but in real life, you’re not going to get into random fights in any red light district in Japan. I have been to Kabukicho many times, and the closest times I got into fights were Nigerian touts trying to get me into their bars.

I don’t think country side China should be portrayed the same, and I agree the fights should come in a narrative context, and not just randomly just because some punk wants to pick a fight.

I totally agree. That’s what makes Shenmue different from most RPGs nowadays. There is never any unnecessary violence, and most of the time Ryo tries to avoid fights as much as possible. But when there is a battle, it feels important, and always helps the story progress.
It also makes Shenmue more relatable, since, like you said, it doesn’t happen that in real life you get jumped at every street corner.

 

[Vivi-gamer]

On the subject of 'Random Encounters', I think it was justified in Yakuza was Kiryu was a notable figure within the City, many gangs/thugs knew of his reputation and would be out to get him. This isn't the case with Shenmue which is why most of the encounters are scenario based - The only time I can think of it being more active and close to random encounters is in Shenmue II at the Beverly Hills Wharf, where there are huddles of gang members around every corner that will confront you. But once again here, Ryo is a trespasser and the gang members will acknowledge that, so it was reasonable.

I can't see the Open world nature of recent games effecting Shenmue III - Unless people have unrealistic expectations of Shenmue being as big as Red Dead Redemption or Fallout. I personally don't expect that at all and if we can have at least 2/3 environments the size of Yokosuka I know I will be content. What I value with Shenmue is the depth it had within the environment, something I think even Shenmue II lost in the size of Kowloon. Both games always had a current objective which strung the narrative along nicely, where most of my experience with recent games in Open-World format are vast and empty or had a lot of repetitive missions which never progressed the story - Metal Gear Solid V as a prime example (Which it still hurts to say...)

 

[Guppy]

On the topic of random battles and Shenmue having RPG elements, random battles are certainly not distraction challenges like some by-product of the exploration aspect of a game. If a game like Yakuza has random battles, it is because the developers wanted its main mechanic, which is the combat, to be the major focal point of the games and it makes sense as the series is a brawler in nature (with some adventure elements and a character progression system). Now Shenmue is different, with its attention being mainly on the exploration side, not combat. Proof to it is that about half of the fights Ryo faces in the game is solved by the way of qtes. Again, the developers even went out of their way to make fighting the least intrusive as possible with the AI getting easier to beat with each player's retry or even bypass defeat altogether (Chai arcade fight).
So if Shenmue 3 were to introduce infinite random Enoki type of fights along with a character level progression like I first mentioned in my original post, the focus of the game will be shifted to the more brawler genre Yakuza style of gameplay. That's not Shenmue to me.
Also, grinding, character progression, random battles and sidequests are not inherently elements of a RPG. Series like Metroid, Far Cry and Zelda got them all, while RPGs like Divinity Original Sin got no random battles at all, so no grinding to be found as well.

 

[RyoHazuki84]

If there are going to be random battles, I want it to be more organic and have context. Like for example, if the Chi You Men are going to have more presence in the next city Ryo and company visit, I can understand. Take for example, the Chawanjin can invite fights in Shenmue 2 at certain cafes. If something like that happens in Shenmue 3, then I am fine with that. Other than that, street fighting for money is ok for me.

 

[Jigen]

For more clarification on my statement, I said the game can still feel like Shenmue. Meaning no waypoints or random battles, however, I don't see an issue with a check off list for quests or skill or training systems. I also don't see why these systems can't exist but not enabled by default. I'm sure I've just made myself an enemy but, it is my honest opinion.

 

[Guppy]

For more clarification on my statement, I said the game can still feel like Shenmue. Meaning no waypoints or random battles, however, I don't see an issue with a check off list for quests or skill or training systems. I also don't see why these systems can't exist but not enabled by default. I'm sure I've just made myself an enemy but, it is my honest opinion.

The originals already have systems that acknowledged what you've accomplished and what was Ryo's objective by the way of the notebook and a skill page with all the moves available to the player listed and how much a player has been training with each move. Now if you want the game to tell you exactly what you have missed in a laundry list of things to do, then I don't think that was the spirit of Shenmue I & II as by the end of each adventure, the game never was in my face about how I didn't do a 100% playthrough. Instead, each playthrough felt unique to each player and free flowing because players were not constantly being reminded what they have to do or what they have missed. Even if the features you've mentioned are optionally enabled, the designers are basically asking players that opt not to use said features to inflate the difficulty of the game for nothing as there is really no downside to using all the conveniences of mainstream games like GPS indicator and checklists. It's not really that bad, but might as well open the floodgates while at it, like have an inventory system which allows Ryo to hoard healing, revival and power boosting items to make battles easier and mainstream.

BTW, why would you be the enemy? This is a discussion topic after all. If you feel insulted in any way by anything I wrote I apologize.

 

[Jigen]

The originals already have systems that acknowledged what you've accomplished and what was Ryo's objective by the way of the notebook and a skill page with all the moves available to the player listed and how much a player has been training with each move. Now if you want the game to tell you exactly what you have missed in a laundry list of things to do, then I don't think that was the spirit of Shenmue I & II as by the end of each adventure, the game never was in my face about how I didn't do a 100% playthrough. Instead, each playthrough felt unique to each player and free flowing because players were not constantly being reminded what they have to do or what they have missed. Even if the features you've mentioned are optionally enabled, the designers are basically asking players that opt not to use said features to inflate the difficulty of the game for nothing as there is really no downside to using all the conveniences of mainstream games like GPS indicator and checklists. It's not really that bad, but might as well open the floodgates while at it, like have an inventory system which allows Ryo to hoard healing, revival and power boosting items to make battles easier and mainstream.

BTW, why would you be the enemy? This is a discussion topic after all. If you feel insulted in any way by anything I wrote I apologize.

I am not offended by your post, I just know how contentious my opinion is so, I am expecting some backlash from somebody.