Steam vs Epic Games

[Tosh]

I hope you're right about this thing not being a great deal for sales, but unfortunately I still believe the damage is quite big. Shenmue needed those random people buying the game, and Steam numbers are IMPRESSIVE.

try looking at it from the other side. without Deep Silver and Epic,
Shenmue 3 would be a different game. Suzuki mentioned this already in a couple of interviews
that without Deep Silver, the Shenmue experience in part 3 would be much more restricted.
with the help of Deep Silver, Shenmue 3 has now more content than Suzuki imagined.
so all of us will receive a better game.

now if we erase Deep Silver from this project for this example, it means there is only the budget from Kickstarter,
no money for extra delays, no money for that second studio, less NPCs, probably less voices, a smaller game world,
the game would have been released in 2017 or 2018 with the graphics quality
of the first teaser or maybe even worse than that.

sure, the game would be available on Steam, but do you think that this would be a better deal?
it wouldnt change anything because then we would have even more discussions about bad graphics
and how this is a very restricted Shenmue game and not the true part 3.
and this would affect all of us, not just one platform.

but with Deep Silver and Epic, all of us will receive a superior Shenmue 3 experience
and we "just" sacrificed a group of people, who can still play it later.

so out of these two options, i still think that the Steam sacrifice one is a better trade-off
than having a inferior Shenmue experience for everyone, but you can buy it on Steam.

 

[Flagship]

If anyone wants to hear the events surrounding Shenmue 3 atm from a litigious point of view, I thought this video (from Hoag Law) explains it eloquently, especially things on the terms and conditions side (I feel like there's been a lot of misinformation on that front).

 

[danielmann861]

If anyone wants to hear the events surrounding Shenmue 3 atm from a litigious point of view, I thought this video (from Hoag Law) explains it eloquently, especially things on the terms and conditions side (I feel like there's been a lot of misinformation on tat front).

I just tried to show this video to someone on Reddit to back up my arguement as to how you were never specifically promised Steam at time of investment and got called an "SJW" for supposedly defending Epic Games Store (somehow I'm an SJW for simply saying they have the right to make changes to their delivery service...I have no idea how that makes me an "SJW" )...this is the level of maturity that is out there. I'm literally arguing with idiots....Jesus fucking christ there are some fucking dense people out there. (sorry for the language, but fucking hell man)

Thanks for the vid though. It is informative and helps fill in blanks that even I had from a legal stand point.

 

[DarksideHazuki]

Some quick back-of-cigarette-packet maths on the amount of refunds to be expected from the whole EGS shitstorm, and the total (direct) cost to Epic paying out these refunds (this is very, very rough and not to be taken as an actual analysis, we'd need actual hard data for that.)

We have 81,087 backers through Kickstarter and Slacker Backer combined. Going by the split between PS4 and PC backers on the Kickstarter, it's around 3:1 PS4 : PC. Going by the amount of refunds that were reportedly requested during the same shitstorm w/ Phoenix Point, which was 3% (daedalus2 is an actual SnapShot employee, and not just a randomer saying this) - let's go worse-case scenario and say it was actually double that in the end, so 6%.

So that's 81,087 * 0.25 = 20,272 PC backers. Assuming absolutely none of them opt for switching to PS4, or simply waiting a year for Steam, let's apply that 6% refund rate. 20,272 * 0.06 = 1,216. So there's 1,216 people so upset with the situation they've opted for a refund. Even if every single one of these people backed the game for an average of $60, that's about $73,000 in revenue.

People acting like the sky is falling from this, but even under the absolute worst-case scenario, it's really not that bad imo. It's a wonder Epic didn't just step in and get ahead of this the moment the controversy came about, given how small the monetary damage is in comparison to the PR disaster it became.

 

[danielmann861]

Do any of you feel like you were lied to with the whole EGS deal? I keep seeing this in YouTube comments and Reddit and anywhere that is really talking about this. Everyone likes to keep saying they lied to their backers. I got to be honest, I don’t feel like I was lied to. Maybe it’s because I’ve worked QA and I know that nothing is final in development or maybe it’s because I read the words Subject to Change on those specs and thought “okay, it’s not final and any of this could change”

I just don’t feel lied to. I feel the lie would have been if they announced the switch like a month or even a fortnight before release. Like if they had lead us to believe it was on Steam and then pulled the switch at zero hour then I would have felt lied to.

I just don’t feel lied to. I feel like it was as open and honest as they could be that nothing was final in those target specs.

But how about you guys and girls? What say you?

 

[GhostTrick]

Do any of you feel like you were lied to with the whole EGS deal? I keep seeing this in YouTube comments and Reddit and anywhere that is really talking about this. Everyone likes to keep saying they lied to their backers. I got to be honest, I don’t feel like I was lied to. Maybe it’s because I’ve worked QA and I know that nothing is final in development or maybe it’s because I read the words Subject to Change on those specs and thought “okay, it’s not final and any of this could change”

I just don’t feel lied to. I feel the lie would have been if they announced the switch like a month or even a fortnight before release. Like if they had lead us to believe it was on Steam and then pulled the switch at zero hour then I would have felt lied to.

I just don’t feel lied to. I feel like it was as open and honest as they could be that nothing was final in those target specs.

But how about you guys and girls? What say you?

I did. Because "subject to change" is meant for the specs indeed. But the item name in the survey order "Steam Digital" or "Steam Physical" wasn't subject to change, as it was the item name.

 

[Reprise]

Do any of you feel like you were lied to with the whole EGS deal? I keep seeing this in YouTube comments and Reddit and anywhere that is really talking about this. Everyone likes to keep saying they lied to their backers. I got to be honest, I don’t feel like I was lied to. Maybe it’s because I’ve worked QA and I know that nothing is final in development or maybe it’s because I read the words Subject to Change on those specs and thought “okay, it’s not final and any of this could change”

I just don’t feel lied to. I feel the lie would have been if they announced the switch like a month or even a fortnight before release. Like if they had lead us to believe it was on Steam and then pulled the switch at zero hour then I would have felt lied to.

I just don’t feel lied to. I feel like it was as open and honest as they could be that nothing was final in those target specs.

But how about you guys and girls? What say you?

Nope, because rewards only specified a PC version.

In 2015 I pledged $60 for a physical PC version. When I did that, I did so not knowing what form that PC version will take, not knowing whether it would be be riddled with DRM, or would be on Steam or if it would be a disc download activator. Everyone is in the exact same boat. Anyone claiming contrary to that is being disingenuous at best and outright lying at worst.

Eventually I upped my pledge to the $300 tier and chose the physical PS4 version once surveys were released.

Even if I had stuck with the PC version, I'd feel the same.

 

[Zoyous]

How many indie developers did Valve screw over with their botched Summer Sale grand prix game that had people scrambling to delete games from their wishlists in order to get a better chance at winning a free AAA game? There's outrage when their personal convenience as a customer is interfered with, but crickets when developers' livelihoods are damaged. I do hope Epic can topple Valve's marketplace dominance. Ultimately it's going to be better for developers and consumers alike.

 

[GhostTrick]

How many indie developers did Valve screw over with their botched Summer Sale grand prix game that had people scrambling to delete games from their wishlists in order to get a better chance at winning a free AAA game? There's outrage when their personal convenience as a customer is interfered with, but crickets when developers' livelihoods are damaged. I do hope Epic can topple Valve's marketplace dominance. Ultimately it's going to be better for developers and consumers alike.

Valve screwed over indies because people removed games from their wishlist ? Wow. Just wow at the reaching here. If people cant read or if they decide to remove a game from their wishlist, that's their call.

Also, tell me about those wishlists on Epic Store. :"")

 

[Zoyous]

Valve screwed over indies because people removed games from their wishlist ? Wow. Just wow at the reaching here. If people cant read or if they decide to remove a game from their wishlist, that's their call.

Also, tell me about those wishlists on Epic Store. :"")

I forgot people used to say "wow just wow" so thanks for that one. It's a throwback. Valve themselves had to respond by changing the "game" after it had been underway, so I guess they were "reaching" too? In any case you're only confirming a disregard for indie developers and the entire tantrum was about your own individual convenience and brand loyalty. I'm in favor of whatever works best for developers. EGS isn't currently as feature-rich as Steam but I like that it's putting pressure on Valve.

 

[GhostTrick]

I forgot people used to say "wow just wow" so thanks for that one. It's a throwback. Valve themselves had to respond by changing the "game" after it had been underway, so I guess they were "reaching" too? In any case you're only confirming a disregard for indie developers and the entire tantrum was about your own individual convenience and brand loyalty. I'm in favor of whatever works best for developers. EGS isn't currently as feature-rich as Steam but I like that it's putting pressure on Valve.

View attachment 3467

They changed the game because indies were complaining about users removing games from wishlists. Users either unable to read (the game was basically giving you a game from your Top 3 wishlisted games, not from your entire wishlist) or either they removed those games because they didnt care anymore.

But I ask you again: Valve is screwing indies because people decided to remove games by themselves ? Yeah, you're reaching here. Especially when you read follow ups after those claims and the fact that, well, Epic doesnt offer wishlists. I guess indies are fucked then ?

 

[Zoyous]

Maybe you should contact Valve and tell them to retract their apology? Yes, Valve screwed indies and apologized for it. I understand your position and the fact that you're just trolling when I've given you a wall of headlines and you simply try to provoke me by repeating that I'm "reaching." I'm not going to spend the rest of the afternoon chatting with you. Have a good day.

 

[Bule]

I did. Because "subject to change" is meant for the specs indeed. But the item name in the survey order "Steam Digital" or "Steam Physical" wasn't subject to change, as it was the item name.

Would it have been preferable for YsNet and by extension Fangamer not to have specified what the PC distribution platform was in the backer survey?

 

[Reprise]

Would it have been preferable for YsNet and by extension Fangamer not to have specified what the PC distribution platform was in the backer survey?

10 bucks says the backlash would have been the same even if that had been the case.

This has fuck all to do with what was and what wasn't "promised" and everything to do with people just hating on Epic.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

If Epic had been smart, they'd bundle some kind of exclusive Fortnite skin or map with these 'exclusives.' That'd really boost sales. Prob. wouldn't get any new users to the marketplace, but would certainly make some real profits off their captured audience.

 

[高野和泉]

This scenario playing out between steam and epic reminds me of when Sega overtook Ninty's 90% share dominance...maybe it's history repeating itself.

 

[reminisce]

What goes around, comes around...Valve forced folks to install their wares to play games, and now others are doing the same. Either way, as long as developers like Ys Net get more resources and support to develop better interactive artwork, I’m installing whatever I need to support the Shenmue saga...

 

[高野和泉]

Like I've said before, I'll swallow the PR-disaster hardpill if SiV edges out of all of this drama. My ultimate concerns lies in finishing the Saga and Suzuki completing an ambitious legacy to be studied as a masterclass blueprint in unrivaled immersive game design.

 

[reminisce]

Like I've said before, I'll swallow the PR-disaster hardpill if SiV edges out of all of this drama. My ultimate concerns lies in finishing the Saga and Suzuki completing an ambitious legacy to be studied as a masterclass blueprint in unrivaled immersive game design.

Indeed, a masterpiece future humanity can cherish forever...

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Just a month after Jason Kingsley told MCV he would need a "bloody good reason" to do an Epic Store exclusive, Rebellion Developments signed just such a deal for Zombie Army 4. ...

"Generally I think I would prefer not to do exclusives but I understand Epic's position with it, and quite frankly they are paying through the nose to build their store," said Jason. "All credit to them, it's fantastic, and we'll take some of their money, thank you very much." Despite Steam being the de facto PC storefront for over a decade, Jason said the decision to go elsewhere was a "pure business case."

Clearly, whatever Epic is offering developers & publishers is too good to turn down. Even a 'principled' developer said he'd never go Epic, and now look at him.

Jason Kingsley: Epic is "paying through the nose" to build its store

"Sometimes, as an independent developer, you've gotta take your chances," he said. "When something like that is offered... you sort of share the risk and share the reward."