Mass shooting at Florida gaming event

[catonkatonk]

I mean, it gets worse when you look at mass shootings. I can only think of four (that have resulted in death) in the United Kingdom that are unrelated to the Troubles. And I mean ever. I don't mean in living history. I mean in history, period.

So do you really think it's weird for someone living in a country where mass shootings virtually never happen, to think that mass shootings are relatively frequent in the United States? Because they are relatively frequent in the United States when compared to pretty much any other European nation. The top five mass shootings in terms of fatalities in the United States all happened within the past five years. The fact that I can say "top five" in itself makes the United States a statistical abnormality. Population differences can't rationalise it - Europe has twice the population of the United States, and comparatively, mass shootings still almost never happen, even if you factor in terrorist attacks such as those in Paris or Belfast.

RE: stabbed vs. shot,
Using the same data that I linked to above, let's look at the per capita homicide rate:
5.5 homicides per 100,000 in the United States.
0.9 homicides per 100,000 in the United Kingdom.
And it's even less in most European nations.
Is it still "quite a lot". Sure, maybe, in absolute terms, depending on who you are, but since we're talking about relative terms here...
Saying the murder rate in European countries isn't "that much lower" is, basically, not true.

 

[DigitalDuck]

RE: stabbed vs. shot,
Using the same data that I linked to above, let's look at the per capita homicide rate:
5.5 homicides per 100,000 in the United States.
0.9 homicides per 100,000 in the United Kingdom.
And it's even less in most European nations.
Is it still "quite a lot". Sure, maybe, in absolute terms, depending on who you are, but since we're talking about relative terms here...
Saying the murder rate in European countries isn't "that much lower" is, basically, not true.

Okay, let's try something here.

I'm going to look at the UNODC murder rates, as they're the ones I have most readily on hand and have all the countries in. I'm also going to not include countries outside of North America and Europe (this would only disprove your argument further - after all, the US has ten times the number of guns per capita as El Salvador, yet El Salvador has 16 times the murders per capita). Given that you want to compare the US to the UK and "most European nations", I figure this is a reasonable subgroup to look at?

So here are the countries from highest murder rate to lowest murder rate (per 100000 inhabitants) put side by side with the estimate of civilian firearms (per 100 persons, according to the Small Arms Survey). Those in bold have more than 20 firearms per 100 persons.

Mexico - 19.26, 12.9
Russia - 10.82, 12.3
Ukraine - 6.34, 9.9
USA - 5.35, 120.5
Lithuania - 5.25, 13.6
Montenegro - 4.46, 39.1
Belarus - 3.58, 6.1
Latvia - 3.36, 10.5
Moldova - 3.19, 3.0
Estonia - 3.19, 5.0
Albania - 2.70, 12.0
Lichtenstein - 2.69, 28.8
Hungary - 2.07, 10.5
Belgium - 1.85, 12.7
Canada - 1.68, 34.7
Kosovo - 1.60, 23.8
Macedonia - 1.59, 29.8
Finland - 1.42, 32.4
Serbia - 1.35, 39.1
Bosnia - 1.28, 31.2
Romania - 1.25, 2.6
France - 1.23, 19.6
United Kingdom - 1.20, 4.6
Bulgaria - 1.14, 8.4
Sweden - 1.08, 23.1
Slovakia - 1.05, 6.5
Croatia - 1.04, 13.7
Denmark - 0.98, 9.9
Malta - 0.94, 28.3
Germany - 0.88, 19.6
Slovenia - 0.82, 15.6
Ireland - 0.80, 7.2
Greece - 0.75, 17.6
Netherlands - 0.73, 2.6
Luxembourg - 0.72, 18.9
Spain - 0.69, 7.5
Poland - 0.67, 2.5
Italy - 0.67, 14.4
Portugal - 0.64, 21.3
Czech Republic - 0.61, 12.5
Austria - 0.52, 30.0
Norway - 0.51, 28.8
Switzerland - 0.50, 27.6
Iceland - 0.30, 31.7

So what we see is that:
1) "It's even less in most European nations" is false - the UK is almost exactly the median value for homicides.
2) Most European nations with fewer murders per capita than the UK have more guns per capita than the UK.

In case you didn't bother reading that list of numbers, have a picture:

The Pearson correlation coefficient for this data is 0.046; in other words, there is almost exactly no correlation whatsoever between these two variables. Next time you want to "use the data", look at more than two data points.

 

[Henry Spencer]

There's quite a lot in Europe too, I don't know if being stabbed is better than being shot.

The big difference is with guns you can keep distance and mow a lot of people down very quickly. Going around as a solo nutter trying to knife everyone ain't going to get you as far. I know it's morbid but if you're a psychopath stabbing people at an event there's more chance for people to take you down from carrying on, with guns (rifles, automatic, shotgun) it's a different deal. Who the heck is going to try to fight with a guy carrying a gun?

 

[catonkatonk]

I think you're arguing a point I'm not making.

Initial point:
The United States has an abnormally high amount of gun homicides when compared to European nations, so one shouldn't be surprised if people outside the United States think that they are "common". Because, relatively speaking, they ARE "common", depending on what your baseline for that is.

Secondary point, in response to you suggesting that the murder rate in European nations "isn't much lower" than the United States:
The United States murder rate is much higher than most European nations.
Your data indicates that on this, I was being conservative in my wording.

I'll concede to being mistaken about homicide in the UK being higher than the European average. You know why I made that mistake? I didn't look at the numbers - I just "knew" (assumed) that the homicide rate was lower in Germany, Ireland, Greece and Italy, and about the same as France.

I don't care about gun ownership, or the laws pertaining to it, hence I didn't make any mention of that stuff.

 

[Stiz]

Sad that shootings keep on happening. Most are in the U.S.. Other countries do not have as much shootings a year as the U.S.

My condolences go out to the families.

 

[SCQ]

The big difference is with guns you can keep distance and mow a lot of people down very quickly. Going around as a solo nutter trying to knife everyone ain't going to get you as far. I know it's morbid but if you're a psychopath stabbing people at an event there's more chance for people to take you down from carrying on, with guns (rifles, automatic, shotgun) it's a different deal. Who the heck is going to try to fight with a guy carrying a gun?

Well if you're talking about mass killings then we have plenty of those using vehicles, guns and bombs too. Seeing the current state of Europe I don't know how we can still talk as if we have the moral high ground.

 

[Henry Spencer]

Well if you're talking about mass killings then we have plenty of those using vehicles, guns and bombs too. Seeing the current state of Europe I don't know how we can still talk as if we have the moral high ground.

Because kids use knives to kill not guns in these countries. How often do we see sole knife men running into these events and attacking people? It’s always guns. I’m not talking about terrorists here, just men carrying this sort of massacre against their own communities. It’s shocking to me how easy it is for anyone to get guns in certain parts of the US. Do I think all guns should be banned? No. It’s unfair to tar everyone with the same brush as these arseholes. Do I think that it should only be sold to certain citizens in the US? And that more can be done? Absolutely. Look at other countries that allow guns and how much less gun massacres there are. There’s fundamentally something not right there.

 

[thefavoriteplay]

Because kids use knives to kill not guns in these countries. How often do we see sole knife men running into these events and attacking people? It’s always guns. I’m not talking about terrorists here, just men carrying this sort of massacre against their own communities. It’s shocking to me how easy it is for anyone to get guns in certain parts of the US. Do I think all guns should be banned? No. It’s unfair to tar everyone with the same brush as these arseholes. Do I think that it should only be sold to certain citizens in the US? And that more can be done? Absolutely. Look at other countries that allow guns and how much less gun massacres there are. There’s fundamentally something not right there.

It's not "easy" to get guns in the US. Some of these shooters steal or get the guns from their family. There are already several steps in place to qualify for gun ownership. And people talking about "all this gun violence" in this thread don't even mention the dozens of shootings that go on in Chicago every weekend. And that state (Illinois) has some of the stricktist gun laws.

 

[catonkatonk]

I think the advent of 3D printing makes the gun control argument moot, by the way.
MAYBE the United States can implement gun controls which work.
MAYBE that would reduce the homicide rate.
That's all arguable.
But we DEFINITELY can't control the flow of information.
That is inarguable.

 

[SCQ]

Because kids use knives to kill not guns in these countries. How often do we see sole knife men running into these events and attacking people? It’s always guns. I’m not talking about terrorists here, just men carrying this sort of massacre against their own communities. It’s shocking to me how easy it is for anyone to get guns in certain parts of the US. Do I think all guns should be banned? No. It’s unfair to tar everyone with the same brush as these arseholes. Do I think that it should only be sold to certain citizens in the US? And that more can be done? Absolutely. Look at other countries that allow guns and how much less gun massacres there are. There’s fundamentally something not right there.

I agree that there is something fundamentally not right and I would argue that America needs to find a better way to approach mental health issues and this culture that has made mass shootings for attention a thing in the first place. However I don't think it's fair to just dismiss terrorist attacks as they are both mass killings and the people doing the killings are usually anti-social, mentally ill with disdain for the society around them. They also usually do it for attention and out of a feeling of revenge. If terrorists in France can easily illegally purchase a bunch of AKs and kill over a hundred people I don't see how a kid in America couldn't, especially today with the existence of the dark web. Or in the case that he really couldn't, just take his car and mow down a bunch of people or build some home made bombs.

But anyway my point is that violent crime and mass killings in Europe is just as common as the USA these days so I really don't understand why Europeans still speak so condescendingly to Americans on these issues (not targeting you with this statement, it's simply a generalisation). Also they have so many guns in circulation that a ban on them would be as effective as the one in northern Ireland or in latin America as proven by cities like Chicago and Detroit.

 

[Mittens2317]

I know it's morbid but if you're a psychopath stabbing people at an event there's more chance for people to take you down from carrying on

It's also fucking exhausting.

It's not "easy" to get guns in the US. Some of these shooters steal or get the guns from their family.

That sounds pretty easy to me.

I think the advent of 3D printing makes the gun control argument moot, by the way.

I don't think any government or law enforcement agency considers them to be a threat for the foreseeable future.

 

[RyoHazuki84]

The idea of making a gun with a 3D printer is more ridiculous and expensive compared to getting a real gun as the media tries to ridiculously sensationalize it.

Why pay 10x more for a 3D printer? Even if it can fire, it’s only going to work once and depending on the kickback and gun powder, it may explode upon firing.

Also, firearm related crimes have been decreasing for the last 20 years
https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/here-are-8-stubborn-facts-gun-violence-america

Does the US have a gun problem? Of course the reason why people react to such things emotionally is because once is enough. Nobody wants kids to get senselessly shot.

Could gun control laws have prevented Sandy Hook? The shooter actually tried to purchase his own firearms and the clerk turned him down.

Last year in Texas, the system failed when a purchaser’s dishonorable discharged wasn’t entered into the system.

The problem isn’t the laws, it’s the enforcement of them.

 

[Kodama]

Most fatal illegal shooting homicides happen with illegal guns in cities where left leaning lawmakers have made guns illegal sooo... some dude in texas shooting a couple people with a legal gun, while awful, is just a drop in the bucket regarding america's gun problem and the problem has everything to do with culture and nothing to do with guns or the laws about them...

 

[Henry Spencer]

Guns are tied to the culture problem in the US though. And used as a way for mentally ill people to vent in a horrible way. It’s all tied together. Yeah people are going to get guns legally or illegally but that’s not the point. The reason why you get so many people pissed off about guns in the US is because of Fox News spewing a load of crap and that’s what we see over here. Then the story gets forgotten and two weeks later the same thing happens again. Airports are so secure now for good reasons but you go to some events or work in some government buildings and there’s zero security, so I agree with Jeff’s original point of the apathy or the blind spots on having security checks is definitely not good either.

 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I agree that there is something fundamentally not right and I would argue that America needs to find a better way to approach mental health issues and this culture that has made mass shootings for attention a thing in the first place. However I don't think it's fair to just dismiss terrorist attacks as they are both mass killings and the people doing the killings are usually anti-social, mentally ill with disdain for the society around them. They also usually do it for attention and out of a feeling of revenge. If terrorists in France can easily illegally purchase a bunch of AKs and kill over a hundred people I don't see how a kid in America couldn't, especially today with the existence of the dark web. Or in the case that he really couldn't, just take his car and mow down a bunch of people or build some home made bombs.

But anyway my point is that violent crime and mass killings in Europe is just as common as the USA these days so I really don't understand why Europeans still speak so condescendingly to Americans on these issues (not targeting you with this statement, it's simply a generalisation). Also they have so many guns in circulation that a ban on them would be as effective as the one in northern Ireland or in latin America as proven by cities like Chicago and Detroit.

That's exactly what happened here, back in June and Toronto is known for being super safe and calm; we've had only 2 "public," shootings in the past year (I neglect to say mass, as only certain people were targeted, amongst a crowd), with a few other isolated incidents of people going nuts.

But yeah, this guy was depressed that chicks had turned him down his whole life, so he rented an Econoline and just ran down people on Yonge St. (uptown Yonge, not downtown).

Things like this are becoming more common nowadays, not just due to population, but also because with population increases, comes an increase in the tools used to kill (whether manufactured for that purpose or not), due to supply and demand and an increase in people who are unhinged and with mental illness/problems.

Not to say its inevitable, but with increases in population, comes increases in chaos and disorder; natural way of things, in general terms.

The idea of making a gun with a 3D printer is more ridiculous and expensive compared to getting a real gun as the media tries to ridiculously sensationalize it.

Why pay 10x more for a 3D printer? Even if it can fire, it’s only going to work once and depending on the kickback and gun powder, it may explode upon firing.

Also, firearm related crimes have been decreasing for the last 20 years
https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/here-are-8-stubborn-facts-gun-violence-america

Does the US have a gun problem? Of course the reason why people react to such things emotionally is because once is enough. Nobody wants kids to get senselessly shot.

Could gun control laws have prevented Sandy Hook? The shooter actually tried to purchase his own firearms and the clerk turned him down.

Last year in Texas, the system failed when a purchaser’s dishonorable discharged wasn’t entered into the system.

The problem isn’t the laws, it’s the enforcement of them.

Bingo.

But better gun control would go a long way; the problem (as has been beaten to death for a while now) is with all of the guns that aren't in the system and/or ones that have been around before any controls or checks could be put in place.

A well-maintained gun can last a VERY long time and who knows how many old pieces are lying around, still in good working order, not in any systems or being controlled?

I think the fact that 120 guns per 100 persons (as shown by Duckman above) shows that in the United States, there are just too many firearms.

 

[Kodama]

The reason why you get so many people pissed off about guns in the US is because of Fox News spewing a load of crap and that’s what we see over here.

You hit the nail on the head, although at a weird angle. People only care because the news over sensationalizes it. But Fox wouldn't be the biggest offender, CNN's infamous chainsaw bayonet and shit are way worse over over sensationalizing guns. Fox is just ridiculous on the other side of the spectrum...

But really the gun culture problem doesn't come law abiding gun owners, it comes from criminals that glorify violence...

 

[RyoHazuki84]

We can’t say America collectively has a gun culture when so many communities have mixed feelings and laws about them. Illinois can have the strictest gun control laws in the nation, and have the highest firearm related murder rate, while Utah can have the most relaxed firearm laws with the lowest firearm murder rate.

My aunt used to be an EMT in Chicago and her ambulance was shot at at least once a season when she had had to go to the Southside. Then when she was briefly in Utah, all of her neighbors had guns and she never faced any incidents.

The last time I purchased a gun in Arizona in 2008, it took me 21 days to get processed. I had to go through state and federal checks. When it comes to legal gun purchasing, all stores are following the law. My uncle ran a gun store for years and people from out of Arizona tried to buy from him all the time because of gun laws in their home states. In those instances, he had to report to the ATF.

I come from a household of firearms. My dad served in the military for 25 years and he grew up around them, too. I was taught to use them responsibly, and not as a toy. And handling firearms in real life aren’t the same as they are at the arcade. You need to take account gravity, wind, visibility, and even the rotation of the earth when firing. Shooting is a unique art in itself. I personally enjoy it, but that doesn’t mean I need to go out and shoot people for no reason.

 

[Let's Get Sweaty]

What is it going to take for the US to change the gun control laws? Seriously, enough is enough.

It'll be six years this December since twenty little boys and girls, aged 6 and 7, were slaughtered alongside six members of staff by a lone shooter in the halls and classrooms of an elementary school in Connecticut.

If that wasn't enough, I fail to see how anything ever could be.

 

[Kodama]

What is it going to take for the US to change the gun control laws?

Probably when legal gun owners are the ones killing people most often... which will never happen...

 

[RyoHazuki84]

It'll be six years this December since twenty little boys and girls, aged 6 and 7, were slaughtered alongside six members of staff by a lone shooter in the halls and classrooms of an elementary school in Connecticut.

If that wasn't enough, I fail to see how anything ever could be.

People die in car accidents each day, and that’s enough. People die of cancer, and that’s enough.

Yes, any tragedy is enough.

As I said before, the Sandy Hook shooter tried to purchase firearms legally but the clerk turned him down. In the end, he pretty much stole them. Not only were those students and staff members victims, the guy killed his mom too.

Earlier this year in Florida, it turned out the shooter was already reported to the FBI, and they did nothing about him. The Columbine kids were reported to authorities and they did nothing.

In some instances, better legislation could have worked. In others, lack of action of authorities and our system failed its citizens who were given info of these shooters.