Was the Scope of Shenmue 3 too Big?

Interesting topic and good video.

In the Shenmue III credits Yu-san said...

Yu Suzuki: During development I expanded the scope beyond what I had originally envisioned.


I remember that originally this is how Niaowu would look like, in the game Niaowu is way bigger

IMG_8400.jpg​

If YS NET had done Niaowu in a small way similar to the image maybe Baisha would be in the game now, would be better this way? not sure but i like the way Niaowu is in the game, the perfect scenario to me would be to also have Baisha without compromising the Niaowu we got in the game.

In my opinion Yu-san is a perfectionist and ambitious person when comes to his art/projects, i feel that he always think bigger and with new ideas, and if something doesn't go out exactly as he planned then he will probably not like it a lot, probably this is why he gave 7.5 for the game.


Probably the budget Yu Suzuki got was not enough for him to do everything the way he wanted for the game.

When i imagine the development of Shenmue III i feel that it was not a easy development. I imagine that Yu-san had a lot of problems in the development of Shenmue III.

1. limited budget

2. YS NET had to do everything from scratch

3. Limited time. Shenmue III was delayed 3 times. I can imagine Yu-san wanting to delay the game more times to make the game even better, maybe even trying to find a way to put Baisha in the game, and Deep Silver breathing down his neck to release the game soon.

To me the saddest part is that Baisha is not in the game, i believe that if Baisha was in the game the story of the game would be better executed and with a better ending, i even think that in Baisha we would even get more screen time for Niao Sun and Lan Di.

Plus if Baisha was in the game we would see a new location to explore with new NPCs, a new type of gameplay and so much more.

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I like the ending we got but the ending is really rushed, could have been better.

Yu- san said... "Baisha will show off what Shenmue III is all about" so i imagine that Baisha would be the most important location in the game, without Baisha it even feels to me like Shenmue III is missing disc 4.

I would love to know more about the development of Shenmue III, this way we would understand better why some choices were made, how everything happened.

I imagine that the first Shenmue game was harder to make than Shenmue II, SEGA had to do everything from scratch, and then for Shenmue II i believe some things were easier to make because of that.

I believe Shenmue III and Shenmue IV will be similar in relation to that, with Shenmue III YS NET had to do everything from scratch, for Shenmue IV i imagine that some things will be easier, and this way making better for Yu-san to tell the story.

Shenmue III to me is similar to the first game in many ways and i love that, and i believe Shenmue IV will be similar to Shenmue II.

Some things could have been better in the game? yes but overall the game is wonderful to me.

I love the gameplay, the new additions, the soundtrack, the slow pace, the Shenmue one vibe of the game especially in Bailu Village, the conversations of Ryo with Shenhua, the locations and visuals and so much more.

Shenmue III is a beautiful game to me, the only things that i dislike is lack of a few more story scenes, like flashbacks of the time Iwao Hazuki was in Bailu Village with Sunming Zhao would have been nice and would add more to the story of the game. Baisha is not in the game, no throw moves in the game, the fighting system needs improvements about some things, and lack of development for some characters.

Shenmue III is a kickstarter game, in my opinion it is amazing everything that YS NET achieved with a limited budget, a full Shenmue experience. 💚

LetsGetShenmue4 ❤️
 
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I certainly think that a more focused game would have gone down better with fans and critics. It almost felt like Yu tried too hard to please everybody, and in doing so, ended up pleasing hardly anybody at all.

A lot of the mini games could have been cut and both areas could have been significantly smaller and I doubt too many people would have been all that bothered. Of course, if the story we got was the story that Yu wanted to tell then there’s no guarantee that this would’ve resulted in a better game.

The fact that he seems to have prioritized a lot of these things over the story suggests that the narrative was never all that important to Yu or that he thought that none of the fan base really cared. If it was the latter, it kinda blows my mind that he thought we waited all these years and ponied up millions of dollars because we were desperate to play lucky hit and QTE Champion again 😅
 
It is clear that the budget was not enough and Shenmue 3 was a game that was about 75-80% complete. It feels in places that there should have been more side quests. For example, have you ever wondered why Ryu calls the cook at Panda Market by her full name? It's like he did her some kind of favor and they know each other. Things like this have been seen throughout the game, not only in Bailu.

I'm not saying that the problem was only in the budget. It is even possible that they simply needed more time. For me it's more likely that they ran out of money and patched up what was created.

Shenmue 3 was exactly what I wanted. My biggest concern was that they wouldn't make a detailed world with lots of shops like in S2. They did it and I was happy with the game. The game was not fully complete, but nowadays many games are not. When I saw arcade cabinets in the Arcade with the inscription "Coming soon" I expected that they would add new things with patches... Then I didn't know that the money ran out a long time ago. Shenmue 3 is a perfect game for "director's cut" after completing the series. Right now we can't see the full potential of the third game, especially in the story department. Yeah, there could have been more side quests and more games in the arcades with a patches, the battles could have been more fleshed out, but the gameplay aspect that's suffers a lot in these unrealized 20% are the storyline.

I'm definitely behind the idea of releasing episodic Shenmue games with one big location for $20-30 each. They will make more money from the fanbase that way. Shenmue 4 with 3-4 Episodes and Shenmue 5 with 3-4 episodes... After that complete editions on physical disk. :giggle::p
 
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I feel that because Shenmue III is a Kickstarter game that maybe Yu-san felt that he needed to fulfill all the Kickstarter goals and desires for the backers, like forklift job and other things. People gave money for him to make the game so maybe he felt a lot of pressure to put this things in the game.

Yu Suzuki: I knew that if we made Shenmue III, people would be mad if I didn't make an open world [laughs]. I still have a wish where I'd like to make a very closed world game as well. My definition is not an ordinary closed world... it'd be very, very closed... but very deep.

If Shenmue III was not a kickstarter game forklift job would be in the game? not sure, maybe... If Shenmue III was not a kickstarter game we would see arcades in Bailu Village? not sure... but i believe that probably not.

In my opinion Yu-san has a very creative mind, always thinking bigger, with new ideas and always wanting to do the best like a perfectionist, imagine a creative person trying to work with a limited budget and limited time in a big project like Shenmue.

I believe at one time the scope of the game was really big in Yu's head, maybe during development he felt that he would achieve all of his goals for the game, but YS NET probably ran out of money and time so they released Shenmue III in 2019.

thedemon1238 said:
Shenmue 3 is a perfect game for "director's cut" after completing the series. Right now we can't see the full potential of the third game, especially in the story department.
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I agree, Shenmue III is a perfect game for director's cut with Baisha in the game, more screen time and development for Niao Sun, Lan Di, Shiling Lin and many other characters, new scenes, the option for the players to choose if they want to play with the food system or not, i love the food system but i know that other people didn't enjoyed this system, so an option to play the game without this system would be really nice, this way players can choose what is best for them.

If we don't get Shenmue III Director's Cut/Definitive version in a official way i believe the Shenmue community can improve the game even more.

thedemon1238 said:
I'm definitely behind the idea of releasing episodic Shenmue games with one big location for $20-30 each. They will make more money from the fanbase that way. Shenmue 4 with 3-4 Episodes and Shenmue 5 with 3-4 episodes... After that complete editions on physical disk. :giggle::p
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I believe an episodic Shenmue games can work similar to what CAPCOM did with Resident Evil Revelations 2, with RE Revelations 2 CAPCOM released one episode per week over the course of a month, after that as far as i remember CAPCOM released 2 extra episodes for the game, and after that the option to buy the deluxe edition of the game with all the episodes and DLCs.

resident-evil-revelations-2-episode-2-3-4-release-date.jpg​

I think Shenmue IV and Shenmue V can work in a similar way, and i believe it would be better this way for YS NET because of budget.
 
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I agree with what you said, but I'm not sure about the episodic formula.
The risk to not complete the series of episodes is very high for games that aren't so popular.

Focusing on Shenmue 4 and 5, two complete games, is probably better than focusing on like 8 episodes example Shenmue 4 episode I, II ,II, IV and then Shenmue 5 episode I, II, III, IV.
Many things can go wrong during the development of other episodes, it just take one single episode with poor sales and the whole plan will be abandoned, and then we can really say farewell to the brand.


As for Shenmue 3, I'm glad it was made that way, as a real Shenmue game and a real Shenmue experience, and not something different (Life is strange, Yakuza, etc.).
My only disappontments are the lack of Baisha and the Great Wall (that I hope will return in Shenmue 4 together with the train chapter), and the battle system, Shenmue desperately need the Virtua Fighter engine.
 
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My opinion is mixed. I like that Shenmue 3 is rather big with many different locations. It emulates the feeling of Shenmue 2 quite well and that's awesome for a fan.

But on the other hand, the budget of the game might have been too small for such a big game. A smaller but more elaborated Shenmue 3 with more focus on storytelling might have been awesome as well.

I am aware that mini-games are part of the Shenmue DNA and something would be missing if they were not included but for the sake of more consistent storytelling, a smaller scale might have been preferable.

I am still a firm believer in the standpoint that Yu-san should make the Shenmue games he wants to make and it is fine if he does not want to sacrifice parts of the gameplay.

But with a limited budget, some sacrifices might have to be made to progress the story.

With Shenmue 3 I just wanted another chapter of Ryo's journey and that's what we got. So I am not disappointed but I can relate to the disappointment of the fans that have expected more story-wise.

the progress of the story was rather lackluster in Shenmue 3. We just got a little more background info about Iwao and some info about the mirrors but that's it.

The fight with Lan Di in the end shows that Ryo's material art skills have improved compared to the beginning of Shenmue but he is still no match for Lan Di.

There is nothing wrong with that but it would still be cool if we got more story.
 
Suzaku said:
I agree with what you said, but I'm not sure about the episodic formula.
The risk to not complete the series of episodes is very high for games that aren't so popular.

Focusing on Shenmue 4 and 5, two complete games, is probably better than focusing on like 8 episodes example Shenmue 4 episode I, II ,II, IV and then Shenmue 5 episode I, II, III, IV.
Many things can go wrong during the development of other episodes, it just take one single episode with poor sales and the whole plan will be abandoned, and then we can really say farewell to the brand.


As for Shenmue 3, I'm glad it was made that way, as a real Shenmue game and a real Shenmue experience, and not something different (Life is strange, Yakuza, etc.).
My only disappontments are the lack of Baisha and the Great Wall (that I hope will return in Shenmue 4 together with the train chapter), and the battle system, Shenmue desperately need the Virtua Fighter engine.
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I agree with you, focusing on two complete games would be better, i prefer Shenmue IV and Shenmue V, two complete games.

I only said about the episodic formula idea thinking about the scenario where Yu-san doesn't have other options left.
 
WuyingRen said:
I certainly think that a more focused game would have gone down better with fans and critics. It almost felt like Yu tried too hard to please everybody, and in doing so, ended up pleasing hardly anybody at all.
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I was overall pleased, but I do think it was a game with a bit of an identity crisis. There seemed to be two main camps:

1) Those who wanted Shenmue 3 to be as if Shenmue 2 just released yesterday.
2) Those who wanted Shenmue 3 to be as cutting edge in 2020 as Shenmue 1 was in 2000.

It ended up somewhere in the murky middle.

While I lean toward the first camp, I think regardless that would have been the safer bet. Trying to be cutting edge is naturally expensive to make and difficult to gauge gameplay trends and mechanics, while simply trying to match the earlier games but with a slightly fresher graphical scheme would have been cheaper, require less guesswork, and probably wouldn't have chased off most of the fans.

I suppose they may have been hoping to break into the mainstream and earn legions of new fans, but that's always difficult, especially for any already-niche series, and I think a focus on delivering a story for the existing base would have been the way go.
 
It was clear from the beginning given it’s Kickstarter origins and it coming from brand new studio and the early screenshots and budget clearly showed Shenmue 3 was never going to be bleeding cutting edge like the original games. The truth is those days for the franchise are over.

I do think with automation and solution that come with an engine like UE that doesn’t mean we can’t get a game with size and scale we’ve seen before but it’s a careful balancing act, one I don’t think they quite got right for Shenmue 3 but I acknowledge it was a very difficult task.
 
I expected a good story and an okay game. Got an okay game and a bad story. I should have realized that the cut scenes may not have been as cinematic and ambitious as 2, but never would have expected the story to be as poorly written as it was. The game could have been better with some very simple tweaks in design and writing - the food thing was whack and the menu organization was really lazy. No idea on how to know how many scrolls and Chobu cards you were still missing, even the first game had a set number of slots for move scrolls. The button combos is combat also had no rhyme or reason.

There were hints of charm and Shenmue vibe with the conversations with Shenhua and some of the Bailu quests (hide and seek) but to cut Baisha and make Bailu what it was was a bad choice....but probably too late before they realized.

Just didn't have a decent team in place to make it happen with the budget, unfortunately, but some simple things could have been done differently that wouldn't have affected the cost.

Haven't touched 1 or 2 since finishing 3 four years ago, it's all left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'd also be a day 1 Shenmue 4 buyer, but I don't think it's happening ever.
 
I have no issues with the scope it went for, as most backers and every one else were expecting a grand project given the high profile Kickstarter success story. My main gripe was the lackluster scenarios or setpieces, as most consist of learning this one ultimate move from a grandmaster to defeat this one bad guy, rinse and repeat. Having said that, what surprised me most in a good way was actually the combat. Initially I scoffed at it for the missing grappling moves, but the mechanics have more depth than most modern action adventure games (Yakuza included). The issue is that there's no freaking tutorial even for the basic stuff in-game and it was puzzling to watch Yu Suzuki himself encouraging players to just mash buttons. Anyway, combat in Shenmue 3 is really underrated. A few years ago I've made a video montage of my own gameplay to demonstrate it:

 
I don't think the scope of Shenmue was big enough. Shenmue 3 was not a true sequel to Shenmue 2. It was the best version of Shenmue we could get. Shenmue 2 felt like a quantum leap compared to Shenmue 1. While I'm grateful and like Shenmue 3 you have to just accept what it is.
 
BruceWayne911 said:
I don't think the scope of Shenmue was big enough. Shenmue 3 was not a true sequel to Shenmue 2. It was the best version of Shenmue we could get. Shenmue 2 felt like a quantum leap compared to Shenmue 1. While I'm grateful and like Shenmue 3 you have to just accept what it is.
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Of course it was a true sequel to Shenmue 2. Somethings were retconned, sure, but Yu Suzuki changes things up that much that none of the Shenmue games turned out how they were originally written.
And Shenmue 3 was exactly the right scope. Yu said it "expanded inward" whereas Shenmue 2 "expanded outward". S3 was a more personal journey.
I agree that we didn't get enough story after an 18 year wait, but Shenmue 4 will rectify that.
 
Lan Di-sama said:
I expected a good story and an okay game. Got an okay game and a bad story. I should have realized that the cut scenes may not have been as cinematic and ambitious as 2, but never would have expected the story to be as poorly written as it was. The game could have been better with some very simple tweaks in design and writing - the food thing was whack and the menu organization was really lazy. No idea on how to know how many scrolls and Chobu cards you were still missing, even the first game had a set number of slots for move scrolls. The button combos is combat also had no rhyme or reason.

There were hints of charm and Shenmue vibe with the conversations with Shenhua and some of the Bailu quests (hide and seek) but to cut Baisha and make Bailu what it was was a bad choice....but probably too late before they realized.

Just didn't have a decent team in place to make it happen with the budget, unfortunately, but some simple things could have been done differently that wouldn't have affected the cost.

Haven't touched 1 or 2 since finishing 3 four years ago, it's all left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'd also be a day 1 Shenmue 4 buyer, but I don't think it's happening ever.
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You don’t think shenmue 4 will happen why’s that?
 
thedemon1238 said:
When I saw arcade cabinets in the Arcade with the inscription "Coming soon" I expected that they would add new things with patches... Then I didn't know that the money ran out a long time ago.
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I know this post is a couple of months old now, but I just saw it and wanted to correct it.
Those arcade machines with the "Coming Soon" written on them actually get replaced by working cabinets after you've delivered them using the forklift job.
Another fantastic little detail at work there that Shenmue is known for.
 
Sonoshee said:
Of course it was a true sequel to Shenmue 2. Somethings were retconned, sure, but Yu Suzuki changes things up that much that none of the Shenmue games turned out how they were originally written.
And Shenmue 3 was exactly the right scope. Yu said it "expanded inward" whereas Shenmue 2 "expanded outward". S3 was a more personal journey.
I agree that we didn't get enough story after an 18 year wait, but Shenmue 4 will rectify that.
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I know Shenmue 3 was a true sequel. If Shenmue 3 had released on schedule with Sega and AM2 backing it I believe we would've got a completely different experience. Yu still delivered us the best Shenmue experience he could with what he had.

#LetsGetShenmue4
 
BruceWayne911 said:
I know Shenmue 3 was a true sequel. If Shenmue 3 had released on schedule with Sega and AM2 backing it I believe we would've got a completely different experience. Yu still delivered us the best Shenmue experience he could with what he had.

#LetsGetShenmue4
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Do you think it would’ve better if it released under sega in 03
 
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