SuperEyePatchWolf: "Shenmue III is a terrible game and I've wasted my life"

[iknifaugood]

Cedric confirmed it himself that the ending we got was not the one that was originally planned.

Did he say what it originally was? And at what point in development did that shift? Because the KS says that Baisha has been moved to the castle section. I'm just curious how much more was planned beyond "Ryo loses to Lan Di and Niao Sun gets the Phoenix Mirror" as I'm assuming the Cliff Temple, the next logical place, was never on the table.

When looking at the complete Shenmue narrative (once all is said and done), what does it matter if an event happens at the end of one game or the beginning of another? It’s all part of the same story.

Events aren't paced out in isolation. I would look at it more as "when looking at the complete Shenmue narrative, what was all that business with the Red Snakes about, and why did they devote an entire game to it?" And I highly doubt S4 is going to provide an answer. It's like a filler episode of a TV series, only stretched out to an entire season. As if Breaking Bad had 5 seasons and in season 3 Walt and Jessie just stop everything and hunt a fly until the last episode where they run into Gus: even if the first 2 and the last 2 seasons were exactly as good as they are, that would not suddenly make the third season anything other than that weird one where they hunt a fly for no reason till the last episode.

 

[Marcin Gulik]

Did he say Yu Suzuki should give up his desire to work on Shenmue IV? I didn't catch that

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Did he say Yu Suzuki should give up his desire to work on Shenmue IV? I didn't catch that

He pretty much said Yu Suzuki hasn't been relevant in 20 years, that he clearly has no idea the industry has moved on from the way he designs games, that Shenmue 3 sold poorly so there's clearly little demand for the series, and that Yu Suzuki should call it a day, as should us man/woman-children fans. A more charitable take would've maybe considered that Ys Net had never released a full length console game before and they were going through some growing pains.

 

[Suzaku]

He pretty much said Yu Suzuki hasn't been relevant in 20 years, that he clearly has no idea the industry has moved on from the way he designs games, and he should call it a day, as should us man/woman-children fans.

probably a "case closed" would be the perfect line here.

 

[Thomasina]

just tells me that he rather be a melodramatic Youtube commentator who wants to charm girls with his pseudo-intellectual and disingenuous voice, instead of critiquing this game in objectivity.

Wtf?... My goodness.

Some of you seem to be taking this video game review way too personally. Evidence on this forum suggests some of you are way too obsessed with how other people perceive and experience this game.

Yo

Awesome. In that case, judging Shenmue III as a standalone game in the series, then I can't see any inconsistencies at all!

On a side note, I honestly think that a lot of Shenmue (all 3 games) have completely went over the heads of a lot of fans and most notably, SuperEyePatchWolf. As @danielmann861 mentioned, Ryo only has 2 of the Wude principles. And from what I can remember, absolutely none of this is touched on in SuperEyePatchWolf's video review.

You keep eluding to this real world lesson that Suzuki is trying to teach players. Sure that might exist to some degree, and it should be told via Ryo learning this lesson, but it seems like you think few people get this game like you do, and if that's true then the creator has failed in conveying that message or lesson.

Stop being so vague and say as directly as you can what you think is taking place.

I think it is possible that some people just don't get some games, but to suggest that Shenmue fans don't get it like you do seems a bit.... disconnected or, out there.

 

[Dietsoap]

I'm not understanding why people are getting mad about the video.

I've only seen the title (rightfully) get shit, the video itself is getting a lot of praise here. I've admittedly been skimming the thread though so maybe I missed something.

 

[Marcin Gulik]

He pretty much said Yu Suzuki hasn't been relevant in 20 years, that he clearly has no idea the industry has moved on from the way he designs games, that Shenmue 3 sold poorly so there's clearly little demand for the series, and that Yu Suzuki should call it a day, as should us man/woman-children fans. A more charitable take would've maybe considered that Ys Net had never released a full length console game before and they were going through some growing pains.

I mean I personally wouldn't agree with his take if that's what he said. I think Yu deserves a chance with a full team and budget for a game like Shenmue. I think the realities of him getting those things is slim. At the end of the day it's a business and the funders look at this from a numbers and profits perspective, regardless of the level of passion and support the fan base has for the series. In an ideal world I'd love for SEGA to pick up the reigns and we can have that feeling of a SEGA Shenmue game again. I commend Yu for creating a game and not paying attention to the trends of modern gaming, but there are some things I think he can learn from that modern games do well.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

I think Yu Suzuki should definitely read feedback and study modern open world games, which I'm sure he does despite what he says in interviews, but I'm not into statements that suggest someone should just retire because of one disappointing game.

I think the whole "Yu Suzuki doesn't know anything about video games" stuff is overblown. I am sure he follows trends and is aware of what's out there, but I am also sure he doesn't spend his life putting hundreds of hours into the latest and greatest video games. The latter is probably what he means when he says he doesn't play video games. He also has dozens of people on his team who do play games, and I would be surprised if he doesn't listen to them.

 

[iknifaugood]

He pretty much said Yu Suzuki hasn't been relevant in 20 years, that he clearly has no idea the industry has moved on from the way he designs games, that Shenmue 3 sold poorly so there's clearly little demand for the series, and that Yu Suzuki should call it a day, as should us man/woman-children fans.

Yu Suzuki hasn't made a game anywhere close to the scale or genre of Shenmue in 20 years and has openly admitted he doesn't play games. SEPW states that S3 sold poorly and so it's likely a wrap for the series and, even though Suzuki claims he wants to continue the series, he is so burned by S3 that he no longer cares about S4. He even outright says that he would never shit on someone for following their dreams, but he says that he views S3 as essentially a soft reboot of the series to be continued in S4, rather than a meaningful continuation of S2. To be clear: he views S3 as Yu Suzuki's second chance, he is no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because he believes Shenmue 3 to be a "terrible game". That is an opinion you're allowed to have. He does not call anyone a child or tell anyone to move on, and in fact says that he's jealous of those who got something out of S3.

A more charitable take would've maybe considered that Ys Net had never released a full length console game before and they were going through some growing pains.

Sure but after being burned from a 20 year wait and who knows how much in KS donations, maybe he doesn't feel charitable anymore? Again, he thinks S3 is terrible, so he has given up hope in the series continuing.

 

[Dietsoap]

I mean I personally wouldn't agree with his take if that's what he said. I think Yu deserves a chance with a full team and budget for a game like Shenmue. I think the realities of him getting those things is slim. At the end of the day it's a business and the funders look at this from a numbers and profits perspective, regardless of the level of passion and support the fan base has for the series. In an ideal world I'd love for SEGA to pick up the reigns and we can have that feeling of a SEGA Shenmue game again. I commend Yu for creating a game and not paying attention to the trends of modern gaming, but there are some things I think he can learn from that modern games do well.

I mostly agree. It's just that it's less that I want him to learn from modern games (which I honestly do not want at all), and more that I want him to "learn" from S1 and S2. The side characters and story simply needed to be fleshed more like the first two games, although I think he already knows that and simply didn't get around to it. It's like they put the skeleton-frame in place, but never fully filled it all in.

Unlike a lot of people here, I thought the actual gameplay was just about perfect outside of the combat. While still fun, it was clearly a work in progress given the lack of throws among other smaller things.

 

[Marcin Gulik]

If it was supposed to be a soft reboot, I don't think this whole rollout that happened was the right way to go. I think essentially re-releasing the first two games without any major upgrades was a mistake. Trying to appeal to a wider audience with the combat system and other tweaks like Yu suzuki stated was an attempt at pleasing everyone, but not really achieving that objective with either spectrum. I dunno. I feel like the series needs a face lift but maintain the music and atmosphere.

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Chasing 'accessibility' is a mistake. That's what difficulty levels are for. Simplifying the combat was a major mistake. I'm still curious why Yu Suzuki feels the combat and QTE were 'evolved' and 'superior' to what was found in the original games, as stated in some interviews. The combat is a matter of preference, I suppose, but I have no idea how anyone could find the QTEs in Shenmue 3 superior to anything.

 

[Marcin Gulik]

I mostly agree. It's just that it's less that I want him to learn from modern games (which I honestly do not want at all), and more that I want him to "learn" from S1 and S2. The side characters and story simply needed to be fleshed more like the first two games, although I think he already knows that and simply didn't get around to it. It's like they put the skeleton-frame in place, but never fully filled it all in.

Unlike a lot of people here, I thought the actual gameplay was just about perfect outside of the combat. While still fun, it was clearly a work in progress given the lack of throws among other smaller things.

Yeah, I agree with that. The whole story structure with the gangs did make it seem very barren to me. There is a clear mirror image of fight big nasty thug in bailu, and then big thug in niaowu (red snakes). The DLC even had another gang (Blue spiders?) I dunno, it felt very shallow.

 

[spud1897]

Did he say what it originally was? And at what point in development did that shift? Because the KS says that Baisha has been moved to the castle section. I'm just curious how much more was planned beyond "Ryo loses to Lan Di and Niao Sun gets the Phoenix Mirror" as I'm assuming the Cliff Temple, the next logical place, was never on the table.

He didn't go into any detail. I was in the Q&A where it was discussed and all he said was that it wasn't the original planned ending. Cedric said he understood the frustrations with it as well.

 

[LemonHaze]

Yo
You keep eluding to this real world lesson that Suzuki is trying to teach players. Sure that might exist to some degree, and it should be told via Ryo learning this lesson, but it seems like you think few people get this game like you do, and if that's true then the creator has failed in conveying that message or lesson.

Wow, /r/wooosh would have a field day here. At no point am I eluding to a 'lesson that Yu Suzuki is trying to teach the players', it's really simple to be honest:

Ryo is currently far too consumed by vengeance (all of this is specifically mentioned by Xiuying) and that he does not hold all of the Wude principles. <--- this is what I mean.

Stop being so vague and say as directly as you can what you think is taking place.

I think it is possible that some people just don't get some games, but to suggest that Shenmue fans don't get it like you do seems a bit.... disconnected or, out there.

Vague?! Dude, I've repeated the same message numerous times, as have other people like @danielmann861.

 

[Marcin Gulik]

Wow, /r/wooosh would have a field day here. At no point am I eluding to a 'lesson that Yu Suzuki is trying to teach the players', it's really simple to be honest:

Ryo is currently far too consumed by vengeance (all of this is specifically mentioned by Xiuying) and that he does not hold all of the Wude principles. <--- this is what I mean.

Wasn't some of that accomplished after Dou Niu and his mind like a polished mirror bit, plus disc 4 with Shenhua where he's practicing Tai Chi and calming down? I feel like those were important parts in his character development .

 

[LemonHaze]

Wasn't some of that accomplished after Dou Niu and his mind like a polished mirror bit, plus disc 4 with Shenhua where he's practicing Tai Chi and calming down? I feel like those were important parts in his character development .

Good point. But what about the grandmasters in Shenmue III stating that they cannot just "teach him" moves and that he has a lot ahead of him. And anyway, I'm not sure those events solidified Ryo's completion of holding all Wude principles.

EDIT: Ryo currently holds 2 out of 4 wude principles. (as of Shenmue III)

 

[DoubleO_Ren]

Because it is. No one complains about grinding for money in S2 because it's not a problem if you save scum. You can play Big or Small where you can easily play until you win Zhen Zhong (4x your bet) or Chow (8x your bet) and there are places where your maximum bet can be up to $1000. That means you can win $8000 in potentially one dice roll, which is enough to buy pretty much everything in S2 (and should leave Ryo with plenty for S3).

S3, by comparison, has a maximum bet of $150 with a maximum payout of $4500 (30x your bet) on the hardest version of lucky hit, which requires you to hit all 3 times in a row, making save scumming basically impossible. It's not even close to being a comparable time investment (I know because I did it in both games). Gating the player's progress behind an arbitrary paywall is bullshit and should have been abandoned, not doubled down on. You're acting as if people are complaining about it in S3 for no reason.

I don't mind some story progression being behind a paywall if it makes sense or if it's an optional side quest. Ren's one was kinda bullshit, obviously Yu can do what he wants but that felt more gamey than a natural story progression thing, however 500 dollars was it? To fight Rod Stunt makes perfect sense since you'd have to buy in to high stakes competition like that irl and it felt more epic betting on fights so I was ok with that.
Shenmue III though buying moves is one thing but buying stupid wine for some master was dumb as hell, I thought it was a joke or the game would add at least 1000 to my wallet like how Shenmue 1 does when Ryo tells Fuku San how much he's got. But nope, here I am with like 25 bucks to my name and I need 2 grand, I immediately save scummed, didn't even try cos I knew how ridiculous getting money was in the game, it might not have been so bad if he hadn't forced me to buy him dumplings multiple time before hand. And then the 5000 paywall is going too far, for a crappy move that's identical to the previous one that I can't even do in real time?! That pissed me off. They could've easily implemented the Body Check/Reverse Body Check in real time combat too. It's no different than the elbow assault if you think about it, just have the enemy perform the same damage animation that causes at full power.

 

[iknifaugood]

Good point. But what about the grandmasters in Shenmue III stating that they cannot just "teach him" moves and that he has a lot ahead of him. And anyway, I'm not sure those events solidified Ryo's completion of holding all Wude principles.

EDIT: Ryo currently holds 2 out of 4 wude principles. (as of Shenmue III)

I've heard this repeated through various parts of the dojo and I'm just wondering what it's based on? From what I remember he learns the 4 wude in S2 and, judging by his actions Ryo:

Gon: Trains every day without neglect (kind of his thing)
Dan: Is brave, stays calm, and makes the right decisions (Ryo is a good person who frequently helps people and he's never shown being overwhelmed with any kind of emotion, he's virtually defined by his stoicism)
Jie: Doesn't show moves thoughtlessly (Ryo isn't a show off)
Yi: Acts without hesitation, does what is right (Ryo frequently puts his life at risk for others and very pointedly avoids killing several people who would kill him in S2)

What's he lacking?

 

[iknifaugood]

I don't mind some story progression being behind a paywall if it makes sense or if it's an optional side quest. Ren's one was kinda bullshit, obviously Yu can do what he wants but that felt more gamey than a natural story progression thing, however 500 dollars was it? To fight Rod Stunt makes perfect sense since you'd have to buy in to high stakes competition like that irl and it felt more epic betting on fights so I was ok with that.

Totally agree but, I must emphasize, in S2 you buy into the fights for $500, but you get to keep the money! At the end of it you've earned $3K (which has mysteriously disappeared in S3). In S3, it's literally a tax you have to pay to progress the story. I honestly thought it was one of those things where the item is too expensive and you have to find another way to acquire it but nope!