Niaowu's relevance to the plot

Lan Di-sama

Lan Di-sama

Joined
Jul 31, 2018
Digesting the ending, or lack thereof.

The map that Ryo found in Bailu (let's not even mention the fact that the mirrors were already supposedly a map, the fact there was yet another treasure map seemed superfluous) indicated, or so it seemed, the treasure of the mirrors was in Niaowu. We learned that this wasn't the case, it's in the mountain cliff (which was apprently also depicted on the map beyond the elephant trunk - I don't quite remember what it looked like).

But then what purpose did Niaowu serve at all? Why were the Chi You Men stationed at the old castle, if the old castle didn't have any treasure whatsoever? If it was merely a Chi You Men stronghold, then why did the treasure map from Bailu depict it as an important location? Ryo learned nothing there, and what transpired with the Chi You Men could have happened anywhere (i.e. rescuing Yuan and Niao Sun stealing the Phoenix mirror).

Also - why the heck did the Chi You Men kidnap Yuan anyway? And why did they randomly kidnap only one of the other stonemasons? I thought maybe they were taking them to Niaowu to perhaps recreate the mirror/key to the treasure, but it doesn't seem like that was the case.

Niao Sun could have stolen the mirror from Ryo at any point really, why lure him to the castle?

Is it pointless to ask these questions? I've been browsing the forum for a few hours now since finishing the game and it doesn't seem like anyone has been able to make any sense of what we learned in Shenmue 3 - or rather, what we didn't learn.
 
My take is that they kidnapped the stonemasons to find the descendant of the creators of the mirror (Yuan) in order to learn where the Cliff Temple was and hopefully where the Phoenix mirror was, because they were not aware Ryo had it.

What I don’t understand, is that the map indicates that the treasure is located in the Cliff Temple, yet Yuan states that it is also where the mirrors were once stored. Which is it? Because it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to place the key to some sacred treasure in the same place as said treasure.

Also, Niawou is pointless.
 
Lan Di-sama said:
Is it pointless to ask these questions? I've been browsing the forum for a few hours now since finishing the game and it doesn't seem like anyone has been able to make any sense of what we learned in Shenmue 3 - or rather, what we didn't learn.
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Despite what many here will claim, those are perfectly valid questions to ask of someone who has supposedly had this story planned out for 20+ years and requires 4-5 multiple million dollar projects to properly tell it.

There is no reason for Niaowu to exist on that map. We have no idea what the Chi You Men know about anything or what their goals are. The Cliff Temple is where the mirrors were kept, likely not where the treasure is since, as you mention, the mirrors themselves are the map so what is actually at the Cliff Temple is unknown.

My best guess? The story is a complete mess either because things have been changed so much or Suzuki never had the goods in the first place.
 
I think that- once Baisha Village was cut out we were basically left with 2/3rds of a game.

The game is incomplete which is why the story doesn't make as much sense as it should.

I wish I had given more money to the project...if more money had been raised I'm sure Baisha Village would have been added.

However, I now shudder to think about what the game would have looked like without Deep Silver's investment.
 
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Lan Di-Sama, excellent questions you pose. I found myself asking the exact same thing. My answer? Niaowu was basically designed to re-create a Wan Chai-like setting for no other purpose than having a massive environment that could house tons of mini-games, gambling, arcades, and other fluff that serves no relevance to the plot. I am sure after finishing the game you agree that plotting and story were not even secondary for Shenmue III but maybe tertiary. The focus on this game was more just the “Shenmue Experience” involving all the side stuff... apparently Yu felt that’s what we waited 18 years for. Sigh. If this game had exactly zero minigames, zero jobs, zero gambling, zero capsule toy machines, and a ton of character development and story progression; I would of been much happier with that
 
Just to add one more thing, I don’t think I ever would of believed my 17 year old self back in 2003, who raved of the glorious wonder that is Shenmue II would be spending time 16 years later at 33, ranting of the flaws of Shenmue III on the same website. It’s kind of depressing to think that.
 
Maybe Shenmue 2 was just too damn good for it's own good.

Shenmue 2 couldn't go on forever and eventually had to end leaving us in a lurch... and no sequel could ever hope to match it.

That said there were many things that S3 improved upon from 2.... better sparring system, more interconnected subsystems, and shops and restaurants that actually served a purpose.
 
SMDzero said:
Maybe Shenmue 2 was just too damn good for it's own good.

Shenmue 2 couldn't go on forever and eventually had to end leaving us in a lurch... and no sequel could ever hope to match it.

That said there were many things that S3 improved upon from 2.... better sparring system, more interconnected subsystems, and shops and restaurants that actually served a purpose.
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Yeah, I’m thinking like how The Empire Strikes Back was followed up by Return of the Jedi: Brilliance followed by Semi-Mediocrity leaning towards excellent. ;)
 
SMDzero said:
Maybe Shenmue 2 was just too damn good for it's own good.

Shenmue 2 couldn't go on forever and eventually had to end leaving us in a lurch... and no sequel could ever hope to match it.

That said there were many things that S3 improved upon from 2.... better sparring system, more interconnected subsystems, and shops and restaurants that actually served a purpose.
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I mean, Shenmue 2 may have ended up the best game in the series no matter what, but that doesn’t excuse Shenmue 3’s piss-poor execution in the story department. It still could have had, and should have had, a finely crafted plot.
 
I have tried to rationalize the story direction as well.

We know the mirror contained a map but both mirrors were required to reveal the treasure/locations. There are a few explanations I can think of.

1) At the end of Shenmue II, we know Yuan was carving both the Dragon and Phoenix mirror in the cave, is it possible this was done from some older blueprint? If you look at the drawing in Yuans room during II, it seems Yuan already had these designs and Shenhua believes that this had been worked on for generations and that Yuans grandfather apparently had been tasked to make these mirrors for the emperor. It's possible that however Iwao came across these mirrors that he was not supposed to have them (they were supposed to belong to Sunming Zhao) and so maybe Yuan had used this existing blueprint to try to recreate the Phoenix and Dragon mirror in some way to allow the map to be preserved and then copied on to the scroll. That might be why Ryo was not hesitant to give up the Phoenix mirror because he already had the scroll indicating the actual location without needing both mirrors but I assume Lan Di and Niao Sun did not have prior knowledge to the locations.

2) Regarding Niaowu. Not much information is given other than the elder lady indicates that there is a formation with a hole in it, maybe this was the Chiyoumens base and it was drawn out because it was likely a place of some form of significance. The issue is that this is where the red snakes are using it as a base to transport the stonemasons and the castle area seems to be a base but not clear how it was connected, or is it possible that at some point this was an important place since it appears located along the Lijiang River as one of the larger cities? It seems Ryo only really goes there because Chi reveals this was where the stonemason was transported, and so maybe at one time the treasure was located there which is why base was setup in that location and the scroll reveals that it was moved to another location. Yuan mentions that the Chiyoumen however have occupied the location over by the great china wall so I wonder if he was forced to reveal this, or if Yuanda Zhu had given information? It seems like whatever information has been provided is a backup which is why the mirror is not needed currently. It seems like Niaowu is more seen as a base currently more than anything else.

3) The story focuses heavily on the Chinese emperor and the bridge in Guilin, it would be interesting to note if Niaowu had some sort of relevance to the emperor. This could all be symbolic as well since the castle burns down and I believe the story mentions a dragon rising from the ashes and a phoenix will create a purple haze high above. Niao Sun seems to represent the Phoenix, and Lan Di the Dragon which is indicating by his embroidery on his outfit.

Think of Niaowu kind of like the Kowloon of Shenmue II, I don't believe there is really a specific importance of the city it's self but rather that this is where Yuan was being held similar to how Yuanda Zhu and the yellowhead gang were in Kowloon.
 
Also, why was Verdant Bridge so important? They made a big deal about it in relation to the mirrors, and the thugs were even sent there by the CYM to “observe it”. What was supposed to happen there? They never expounded upon it.

The story of the game is a mess.
 
TwiceFriedRice said:
Also, why was Verdant Bridge so important? They made a big deal about it in relation to the mirrors, and the thugs were even sent there by the CYM to “observe it”. What was supposed to happen there? They never expounded upon it.

The story of the game is a mess.
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Apparently it was built for the special envoy of the emperor which had the mirrors crafted in Guilin and something to do with the mirrors representing the emperor and empress so this seems to be pointing to Guilin having a special designation to the Chinese Emperor at that time but I agree that there really wasn't much focus on the importance unless it's catering more towards some sort of tradition or something unusual for a small town.

Maybe its pointing towards some sort of ancient fate that Ryo and Shenhuas ancestors were the emperor and empress, theres a lot of indication that Shenhua prophesizes in her poems that this has been foretold since ancient times.

I think a lot of this probably doesn't translate well in English.
 
TwiceFriedRice said:
Also, why was Verdant Bridge so important? They made a big deal about it in relation to the mirrors, and the thugs were even sent there by the CYM to “observe it”. What was supposed to happen there? They never expounded upon it.

The story of the game is a mess.
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Yeah, I wasn't understanding why Ryo zeroed in on the Bridge itself after seeing that photo in that temple in Bailu. How the Bridge became the next line of questioning seemed silly, and even though it turns out the Bridge was constructed to welcome the envoy in the picture, it still doesn't make the Bridge itself important. The Bailu elders did not really contribute much to the lore at all - the reveal that the mirrors were only created in 1910 also threw me for a loop. Isn't this an ancient prophecy?

Other Bailu silliness were these tokens that were haphazardly scattered around the blind lady's house, that revealed this treasure map that didn't mean a damn thing - ultimately, Niaowu meant nothing and the cliff temple was already known by Yuan and apparently the Chi You Men didn't need the scroll to find out about it either. Whether or not the Chi You Men have operated from the cliff all this time or only recently discovered it was conveniently unexplained. Thus the scroll was just a plot device to send Ryo and Shenhua to their next meaningless destination when they easily could have been directed to the next location by the Bailu thugs.

I need another drink.
 
Lan Di-sama said:
Yeah, I wasn't understanding why Ryo zeroed in on the Bridge itself after seeing that photo in that temple in Bailu. How the Bridge became the next line of questioning seemed silly, and even though it turns out the Bridge was constructed to welcome the envoy in the picture, it still doesn't make the Bridge itself important. The Bailu elders did not really contribute much to the lore at all - the reveal that the mirrors were only created in 1910 also threw me for a loop. Isn't this an ancient prophecy?

Other Bailu silliness were these tokens that were haphazardly scattered around the blind lady's house, that revealed this treasure map that didn't mean a damn thing - ultimately, Niaowu meant nothing and the cliff temple was already known by Yuan and apparently the Chi You Men didn't need the scroll to find out about it either. Whether or not the Chi You Men have operated from the cliff all this time or only recently discovered it was conveniently unexplained. Thus the scroll was just a plot device to send Ryo and Shenhua to their next meaningless destination when they easily could have been directed to the next location by the Bailu thugs.

I need another drink.
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I get where you are coming from and I know we all speculated the purpose behind the mirrors for the last 18 years, it's really difficult to know if any of this was rewritten but judging from some of the strange cuts like going from the boss guy mentioning Chai was on his way to the elders house and that he is one sick puppy to the elder without explanation directing Ryo to the tower and the keys, it seems that either content was cut, rewritten or lost in translation as that part makes little sense. The sword of 7 stars being used both in the cave and the tower seems to indicate Yuan designed the tower holding the scroll or at least an ancestor.

Even the first 2 games focused heavily on lore like the Hazuki family crest/sword guard, and the white leaf I assume from Bailu which there is little explanation. Maybe there will be a return to Bailu village in the future that explains more?
 
pilman said:
I get where you are coming from and I know we all speculated the purpose behind the mirrors for the last 18 years, it's really difficult to know if any of this was rewritten but judging from some of the strange cuts like going from the boss guy mentioning Chai was on his way to the elders house and that he is one sick puppy to the elder without explanation directing Ryo to the tower and the keys, it seems that either content was cut, rewritten or lost in translation as that part makes little sense. The sword of 7 stars being used both in the cave and the tower seems to indicate Yuan designed the tower holding the scroll or at least an ancestor.

Even the first 2 games focused heavily on lore like the Hazuki family crest/sword guard, and the white leaf I assume from Bailu which there is little explanation. Maybe there will be a return to Bailu village in the future that explains more?
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It has to be for any hope of salvaging the story. Bailu Village is the most important location in the series based on its relation to the mirrors, Shenmue tree, Shenhua, Iwao, and martial arts, and all of those elements are grossly glossed over.
 
TwiceFriedRice said:
It has to be for any hope of salvaging the story. Bailu Village is the most important location in the series based on its relation to the mirrors, Shenmue tree, Shenhua, Iwao, and martial arts, and all of those elements are grossly glossed over.
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I definitely agree. I think Lan Di-samas posts were the ones I read on the old dojo where everyone was speculating some of these questions like you mentioned and I am paraphrasing here.

1) What is the mystery behind the Shenmue tree? Obviously this tree is very important to Shenhua and she believes it protects her, it appears as a very large cherry blossom tree yet doesnt even really get mentioned at all in III. The only explanation is that Shenhua has some sort of ties to nature where she has this innocence about her such as listening and talking to animals, not having many human friends and this fate based understanding that controls destiny.

2) Shenhuas dad, I honestly thought he was dead in II because she mentions something about the northern star? flickering indicating something bad happened and the poem seemed to indicate something about finding the proof of the one who has the phoenix. Only speculation at this point but perhaps it was known that someone had stolen or taken the mirrors and that person would be returning due to the negative actions associated. I am assuming the Phoenix and Dragon mirrors either A) are simply not as important as we think and they simply represent a key or based on the original drawings and that they are more symbolic or B) The mirrors indicate evil (think lord of the rings) and giving up the Phoenix mirror for Shenhua that she is more valuable and important than the mirror and Ryo having it simply showed proof she can trust Ryo.

It is possible the story simply isn't as deep as we thought but I would like to believe that maybe this was simply preparing us for the real continuation in Shenmue IV and the focus was more on Ryo and Shenhua. We know in Shenmue II that Lishao Tao was concerned that Ryo was too focused on revenge and had no patience hence the whole frustration grabbing leafs and while he has the wude, he doesn't have all of it.

Maybe giving up the Phoenix is part of doing what is right to save a human life because the physical phoenix mirror is no longer needed since we have Shenhua now.
 
Something else I wanted to add, if you look at some of the things from Project Berkley and the Shemmue Online videos, the direction of the game seemed to be taking a bizarre turn. You can see Ryo tossing the Phoenix mirror towards Lan Di where Joy is being held hostage and they are on top of a roof in a large city. There were some unusual super natural powers being displayed so I have my doubts if this was some sort of creative liberties or what the direction of the story if it was solid.
 
I was completely prepared for the Shenmue tree to be more symbolic than anything, despite such a dramatic reveal in S2 (and the following conversation in the house with Shenhua about it that gives me goosebumps). But even this was handled poorly - the fact there was more than one Shenmue tree (exactly one) just made little sense, why wasn't it discussed at all? Outside of one conversation about the Shenmue tree leaves falling, not even a comment from Ryo was made about the fact there was another Shenmue tree in the village, and none of the symbolic meaning behind it was even touched on other than one stray comment from Shenhua that the tree protects her.

pilman said:
Something else I wanted to add, if you look at some of the things from Project Berkley and the Shemmue Online videos, the direction of the game seemed to be taking a bizarre turn. You can see Ryo tossing the Phoenix mirror towards Lan Di where Joy is being held hostage and they are on top of a roof in a large city. There were some unusual super natural powers being displayed so I have my doubts if this was some sort of creative liberties or what the direction of the story if it was solid.
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The Berkeley scenes I assumed to be based on the original script although I wouldn't put any stock in that first Shenmue Online trailer.
 
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