Magic Monaco Press Conference March 9th 2019 Part 2 Discussion and Reaction

[orient]

I had zero expectations going in, which is why I'm not too caught up on the lack of gameplay or the way it was cut. I just assume we're getting that stuff soon enough, and that there will be trailers that better appeal to the general public before the game comes out

 

[Van Joel Sandwich]

I'm gonna be honest guys.
Many of the comments here criticizing are purely narcisistic. Like everything has to be fit to your liking. Remember when a game came out and you just accept it for what it was even if you didn't like it?
Whats with all this "nose to big" "jaw too small" crap talk?
People are free to have their opinion on everything but sometimes I can't help but think how arrogant some of these comments are.
Like every single detail has to fit their likings. Guess what? The king is not inside your bely. If everythings fit to your likings probably wont fit in all other peoples likings so, let the development team work do their job. They surely know more about games and graphics than all of us.
Perhaps a litle gratitude will make you see things diferently, and apreciate what we're getting here.
Its amazing to have a new shenmue game being made in the first place.
Also of course character wont look the same as in past games! Come on! Use your head! New console, totaly different engine, almost 20 years later and you expect them to look exactly the same? damn. Look in the mirror, I bet you, you also don't look the same you looked 20 years ago.
A litle humility and gratitude will serve much people better .

 

[Space Lion]

View attachment 2279
Yeah, but this game never had caricatures....it was all super realistic you guys.

Look, I love Shenmue and all, but maybe it's time to pull your head out of the sand and actually look at some of these characters. The one above is straight up caricature. The caricature of an Italian man that looks and speaks like Mario (borderline racist if you want to go there, but I don't because I'm willing to forgive since I don't think it intends harm)

But don't act like caricatures didn't exist in Shenmue, because they did. You don't have to like the character models, but to act like caricatures didn't already exist in these games is to put your head in the sand.

You don’t know what a caricature is. A caricature isn’t someone with a big nose. People with big noses exist. Italians can have big noses. A caricature is an exaggeration of the human form. That pic of Mario you posted isn’t an exaggeration in the least.

 

[Space Lion]

I can just speak for me. But I like the art style and just for the sake of defending the trailer. To me Shenmue always had a comic look. Seeing the games with the knowledge you have in 2018 it is the only real conclusion you can get. Shenmue and realistic. I do not think so.

Take Goro for example. He is supposed to be Teen, but he looks like a 30+ Elvis imitator. Or take the whole NPCS in S2 like Cool Z for example. Does not look like real in the first place.

If you want to find some realistic looking games in the light 1990s, try out the Max Payne Trailer. They tried to look realistic. Or take a look at Resident Evil Code Veronica. Also a more "realistic attempt than Shenmue.

From point of view there is nothing to defend from the trailer. I am bored of the hyper realistic approach try to take these days. The tech is not ready yet for that approach and I am glad that there are games out there with have a more unique look.

Goro just looks like a regular Japanese gangster.

Oh and regarding the NPCs...

I think that people are gonna come down on either side of the line on this; those who appreciate the more exaggerated characters and those who don't. It harks back to the manga stylings of the 2D design work that was always there, where generally the main characters do look a bit prettier and "normal", and less important characters get these exaggerated features to help them stand out or become memorable in spite of their reduced screen time.

And it was always there even in the 3D models IMO, but Dreamcast graphics kind of closed that gulf because both the "prettier" and exaggerated designs were limited by the hardware uniformly. Now that the 2D designs can be rendered in 3D with a huge degree of accuracy though, that gap is more apparent and jarring to some.

I dunno, I think this will be a taste issue for most. I fucking love the exaggerated designs in the NPCs, especially after coming off other games like Yakuza with pretty bland looking non-story characters. The same goes for games that use photogrammetry, where less important characters look realistic... but are about as memorable as just some dude you saw for five seconds while walking around town. And even then games with photogrammetry tend to keep casts small, because that shit is expensive and time consuming.

Those exaggerated designs say a lot about the characters too, which I appreciate. The guy who let Ryo into his home for example - I could quite easily think that he's some sort of manual laborer, maybe unmarried, middle aged, and has a gruff personality. I don't need a ginormous back story for each and every one, because you can kind of fill in the gaps yourself just looking at them. A subtler look might not convey all that; it's about showing and not telling.

Yeah, I really appreciate this post. Unfortunately this is an area I will never be able to budge on because the aesthetic of the originals is so dear to me. I also noticed that non essential npcs weren’t as detailed as say, Ryo. And I expect that. But even while the npcs were lacking detail they made up for it.

Take this lady in one of the offices. Look at how glamorous her outfit is. It’s flat, but glamorous. And extremely well designed.

That realism, that attention to detail. It’s a big reason I loved Shenmue and still love Shenmue after all these years where I can sit back and appreciate things kind that.

So for some people to tell me I’m insane and that Shenmue has always been like this? That I’m a narcissist for feeling this way? I’m sorry but I can’t.

Also, I love the general aesthetic of the game. I think it looks beautiful. I just can’t get behind many of the npcs they’ve shown us. I’m not trying to be negative but they go completely against something that I, personally, like about Shenmue. I understand the constrains and the bigger load of having to model 300+ characters but it’s not something I will ever like, accept, or come to terms with.

I think it’s fine as long as this opinion is respected and we are not accused of being delusional or narcissists.

So yeah, this is a battle that will likely never be come to terms with between either party. I understand what you mean about knowing his profession by looking at him but the wife beater says a lot. Old Shenmue would have him with no socks or shoes, with dirt all over his wife beater to show that the man works physically for living. It wouldn’t have needed to go out of its way to bulk someone up to a ridiculous degree to say,”this man works a farm.”

But again, this is all about preferences and it’s something I personally will never be able to see eye to eye on.

 

[Van Joel Sandwich]

Mouths and nozes can be really big in real life too! LOL


Even damn Iggy pop had a "charicature" face!



KRS one ! A great rapper. Is that a charicature?



Poeple can look all kinds of ways in real life, so to complain about that in a game seems redundant and nitpicky.
And if youre argument is that Shenmue 1 and 2 didn't had those kids of NPC think better.
Remember this guy?!


Pretty big mouth if you ask me.
what about these two?


And the list goes on and on.
Shenmue allways had funny looking NPC's.
So don't tell me that its a new thing in shenmue 3.

 

[KiddMarine]

I'm not a fan of the odd looking NPCs in the trailer, but that's only a couple out of 500 or so. We've seen plenty of more normal looking ones.

 

[DigitalDuck]

People with big noses exist, therefore Pinocchio is real.

 

[Space Lion]

Mouths and nozes can be really big in real life too! LOL
View attachment 2285 View attachment 2286

Even damn Iggy pop had a "charicature" face!
View attachment 2287
View attachment 2288

KRS one ! A great rapper. Is that a charicature?

View attachment 2289

Poeple can look all kinds of ways in real life, so to complain about that in a game seems redundant and nitpicky.
And if youre argument is that Shenmue 1 and 2 didn't had those kids of NPC think better.
Remember this guy?!
View attachment 2291

Pretty big mouth if you ask me.
what about these two?
View attachment 2292
View attachment 2293
And the list goes on and on.
Shenmue allways had funny looking NPC's.
So don't tell me that its a new thing in shenmue 3.

1. No one has said Shenmue has never had funny looking NPCs. Quite the opposite actually. But they've always been exceptions, just like how funny looking people are exceptions in real life. The reason you can probably remember them is because they stook out compared to the rest of the characters in the franchise, actually. Yet in this single trailer almost all of the characters fit the bill and this should tell you something but for some reason it doesn't.

2. No one said people don't have big noses or mouths in real life. I have big lips and a wide nose.

3. You picked the best shot available for that old man. No one is saying having a big nose makes you unrealistic. But almost all of those characters have big noses. Asians can have wide noses in real life. Asian noses actually tend to be flat so, it's a thing. But Asians generally do not have big, hulking noses as the people we've seen in this trailer.

You seemed to miss my point that ALL of the men we see besides Lan Di and Ryo have huge hulking honkers.

Exhibit A:

B:

C:

4. Let me take you around art terms. Here's something you should know about me: I'm a professional artist. A caricature is an greatly exaggerated take on the human form.

This is a caricature.

Arnold has kind of a big forehead so you eaaase it out a bit. He's got a manly shaped jaw so you pullllll it out a bit. And voila, caricature. Caricaturized drawings is the foundations of cartoon characters.

5. Being weird looking does not make one a caricature. People with bad teeth like that exist.

6. Characters like Zhu's assistant were definitely funny looking, but again, vast exceptions. No one has claimed exceptions did not exist and it's hilarious to me that you actually think pulling out a random dude proves the rule. It's horrific argumentation.

I googled Guilin region faces. Wide, flat noses are a thing because as I said, those things exist in real life.

But there's a vast difference between this:

and

More faces from Guilin.

Look at this farmer, why doesn't he look like he's on steroids? He's clearly doing something wrong.

Now let's look back at Shenmue III.

This will be my final post on the matter. Too many people are interjecting their own assumptions and using bad arguments to defend the fact that ultimately they're fine with it. Being fine with it is cool. Treating people like they're delusional and that Shenmue has always looked like this isn't. It's okay to be fine with the changes but don't treat the rest of like we belong in a padded cell.

 

[warbb]

It feels like a proper continuation of the series. There's one thing left to worry about and that's controls. I hope there's no strafing about like in modern action games in general play.

There are lots of very weird looking characters in Shenmue 1&2. It's as though some would rather it didn't look like a Shenmue game, or they forgot what Shenmue games look like. Many of the NPCs we've seen are 'normal' looking, as in the other games.

 

[ShenFan2020]

Mixed reaction from me. Lan Di and Shenhua look great. Other characters, i dont like their design/art style.

I'd also like to say certain users here and on Shenmue fb page really need to take a look at themselves. Why are you questioning how big fans of shenmue people are, or whether they played at release, or simply putting down their opinions, simply because they dont like design choices.

its not about triple a, look at Lan Di, perfect.

I agree 100% with SpaceLion.

 

[Jibby]

Hey everyone, just quickly dropping this here. We know that the Dojo is still a bit slow after yesterday's surge of traffic, but rest assured that we're working on it. Please bear with us.

In the meantime, when making a post, please be sure to only click the 'Post reply' button once. When the yellow bar at the top of the screen vanishes, your post should be live. The lag just makes it so that page sometimes doesn't auto refresh. That's why we've been seeing so many duplicate posts lately.

Thanks for your patience. We'll hopefully be beck to full speed soon!

 

[mjqjazzbar]

Fortunately, Shenmue is a video game, dude. We’ll all get through this together.

People with big noses exist, therefore Pinocchio is real.

I personally really like the trailer. I wish they could’ve been given a hundred million and been given a staff of 500 Sega employees to help make the Shenmue 3 that’d make us all happy, but obviously that’s impossible.

Now we need to see an actual gameplay trailer so we can start to believe August 27th is a real date. Can’t really expect people to not talkabout the look of the game when all we’ve been given is cinematics.

 

[Spaghetti]

Joel is right provide examples of people who have faces with exaggerated features and a lot of character, because it should remind us that we see a huge amount of variety in how people look every single day. The stylisation brings that a little more obviously to the surface, but as KidMarine has already pointed out - it isn't universal.

 

[Lan Di-sama]

I think the criticism of the art direction and NPC design is valid and think bringing up bizarre characters like Chai or Dou Niu as a counter argument is B.S. Those characters looked strange but consistent with the rest of the game's realistic design; these new characters do look cartoony. I'm still mostly satisifed with everything I saw even though from a narrative or promotional perspective that trailer was not good.

I too noticed the lack of release date at the end of the trailer; can anyone confirm an earlier post that the release date was mentioned verbally during one of the presentations?

 

[mjqjazzbar]

It’s totally valid to criticize the way the game looks, but what’s the point in posting an essay about why you’re right they’re caricatures? They’re caricatures and that’s not changing.

 

[ShenFan2020]

I'm gonna be honest guys.
Many of the comments here criticizing are purely narcisistic. Like everything has to be fit to your liking. Remember when a game came out and you just accept it for what it was even if you didn't like it?
Whats with all this "nose to big" "jaw too small" crap talk?
People are free to have their opinion on everything but sometimes I can't help but think how arrogant some of these comments are.
Like every single detail has to fit their likings. Guess what? The king is not inside your bely. If everythings fit to your likings probably wont fit in all other peoples likings so, let the development team work do their job. They surely know more about games and graphics than all of us.
Perhaps a litle gratitude will make you see things diferently, and apreciate what we're getting here.
Its amazing to have a new shenmue game being made in the first place.
Also of course character wont look the same as in past games! Come on! Use your head! New console, totaly different engine, almost 20 years later and you expect them to look exactly the same? damn. Look in the mirror, I bet you, you also don't look the same you looked 20 years ago.
A litle humility and gratitude will serve much people better .

Because yu has already said he isnt finishing th story in the 3rd game. So we have to get another game funded after 3, drastic changes will hamper that.

Id have been 100% happy if they used the og models and environments and gfx engine and models . Id massively prefer it the current style of shenmue 3.

There also would be no room for criticism on gfx as it would be going forthat specific Dreamcast level of detail as a design choice.

So to say its narcissm is a joke, if id prefer the og gfx.

 

[ShenFan2020]

It’s totally valid to criticize the way the game looks, but what’s the point in posting an essay about why you’re right they’re caricatures? They’re caricatures and that’s not changing.

I for one appreciated his detailed response, with included evidence like photos of real people from that region.

Also, if the game becomes in any way moddable, i bet a grand on of the first big things to be changed is those noses/exxagerated characters lol. 'shenmue 3 realism mod' :)

 

[mjqjazzbar]

The game would’ve been bashed and been called lazy if it looked and played like a Dreamcast game.

They really had no way out of this without upsetting somebody or some people.

Hoping this would ever appeal to millions of people and ensure Shenmue IV would achieve a AAA budget was unrealistic no matter what approach they took.

I’m still waiting for the actual game.

Obviously not liking how things look doesn’t make anyone a narcissist. We all have opinions. That’s not narcissism.

 

[Van Joel Sandwich]

I really like the way shenmue 3 is looking. thats all I will say.

 

[Spaghetti]

Now let's look back at Shenmue III.

This will be my final post on the matter. Too many people are interjecting their own assumptions and using bad arguments to defend the fact that ultimately they're fine with it. Being fine with it is cool. Treating people like they're delusional and that Shenmue has always looked like this isn't. It's okay to be fine with the changes but don't treat the rest of like we belong in a padded cell.

I know this is your last word on the matter and I'm not trying to provoke an argument, but you might have made a mistake ending with this character as part of your "Shenmue didn't always look like this, something has changed" evidence.

Chapter images 4 & 6. There's this dude, same design n' all.

He's Shenmue alright, he's so Shenmue he goes back to the original source.