Expanding the fighting engine

[RyoHazuki84]

Let's just theoretically, we can carry over our Shenmue 3 saves to Shenmue 4. We'll have a lot of moves leveled up as well as our Kung Fu and health. Considering that Suzuki couldn't incorporate throws due to fearing damage of the motion capture suits and their limited budget, I say Shenmue 4 would be the perfect opportunity to bring them back. Shenmue 3 is naturally full of great striking techniques. I say they can still keep the striking techniques based on the old data, but use 4 as an opportunity to maybe exclusively use throws, takedowns, and submissions. I think implementing them can be easy like in Virtua Fighter (okay, if you're an expert on Virtua Fighter). For example, pushing let's say square and x at the same time allows you to do a generic hip toss, or a forward-forward then square and x allows you to do something like the bodycheck. This is the chance to do so.

As for the health, maybe the level 2 circles can be yellow or something. I don't know. I say this is a great way to keep on leveling up the kung fu that you already have from 3.

What I also miss from the original Shenmue games is whenever an NPC instructs Ryo how to do a move, we interpret those instructions into the controls. I also want that back besides the new bawling uppercut (which was of course treated like a gag). I'd love to see more moves such as double leg takedowns, single leg, armbars, triangles, kneebars, ankle locks, or rolling kneebars. Stuff you see in modern MMA or grappling competitions.

As for the training dummies, I think they should also be used to practice your moves. Like use it to level up certain combinations like a one-two, or some other wing chun chain punches, etc.

 

[Rikitatsu]

Shenmue 3's combat had some good stuff like distance management, but overall it's very bleak. Hopefully it's completely revamped in 4... Especially in terms of hit detection, responsiveness, and targeting.

EDIT: In terms of responsiveness, the solution would be to do away with the convoluted input system, where if you want to do a kick you have to press XXOX, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't feel good, and since the game is waiting for the full input to be pressed, you will get this feeling of unresponsiveness.

Back then, if you want to do an Elbow Assault, you press forward twice and Punch. Which makes sense considering the nature of the move (you explode forward and attack with your elbow). It felt natural and as such it was satisfying.

 

[RyoHazuki84]

Yeah, the response also needs a lot of work. You will notice that a lot when it comes to the sparring. Was it intentional just to accommodate new players? Or is that the fault of the development?

 

[orient]

Yeah, the response also needs a lot of work. You will notice that a lot when it comes to the sparring. Was it intentional just to accommodate new players? Or is that the fault of the development?

I think making it more accessible was a key factor. Personally, I don't think the same style of modified 2D fighting engine used in I & II is acceptable in a 3D game in 2019, and that probably played into it as well.

In going "proper" 3D they had to find a replacement for directional combos, so they replaced them with face button combos...which, in theory, is fine, but they're a bit too elaborate for their own good, to the point of not feeling particularly natural to pull off.

I think this contributes heavily to the laggy feeling of the combat. In literally any good 3D fighter, your attacks accumulate. X = right jab. XX = left-right jab. XXX = left-right jab with hook, etc. You string together moves. In S3, all the moves are completely distinct from one another. There isn't really a half combo. You punch in an elaborate button combo then watch it play out, then you dial in the next one.

I wonder if this was a limitation of the animation and mocap, to be honest. I don't think they had the tech or the money to do nice animation blending between moves.

To be honest it's not terrible. In fact, it can be quite fun. I think they had the right idea but the execution was a bit lacking. Building a brand new fighting engine with a small team (along with everything else) was no easy task.

 

[Reprise]

They should expand upon it by taking Shenmue 3's combat engine, placing it in a bin, burning it to the ground and starting again.

How did the same man who developed Virtua Fighter also think that a janky engine with a convoluted multi face button input system was a good idea? As someone else said, it leads to it feeling unresponsive.

 

[spud1897]

They should expand upon it by taking Shenmue 3's combat engine, placing it in a bin, burning it to the ground and starting again.

How did the same man who developed Virtua Fighter also think that a janky engine with a convoluted multi face button input system was a good idea? As someone else said, it leads to it feeling unresponsive.

They won't be doing that as that could take vital $$$ away from other areas and I don't think they're in a position to change the engine again.

It definitely needs improvement but I would be wholly shocked if they didn't work on improving what they already have.

 

[Reprise]

They won't be doing that as that could take vital $$$ away from other areas and I don't think they're in a position to change the engine again.

It definitely needs improvement but I would be wholly shocked if they didn't work on improving what they already have.

Ok, not the whole engine itself, but the battle system should drastically change. I have two ideas, both of which will perhaps be controversial in nature, but that I feel could be fun and feasible on a tight budget.

1. When combat is engaged, switch to a 2D plane and function like a classic fighter. Think how Mortal Kombat functions. I'm not expecting anything as deep, refined and high budget as Mortal Kombat, of course, but I think the team could create something that is deep and fun enough. Plenty of great fighting games have been created with limited budgets.

2. Keep it 3D but work more as a button masher, with grab moves added back in, in a similar style to Yakuza.

 

[danielmann861]

Having played it again last year...I still think the combat system isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It's not perfect and its certainly not the VF engine...but its not terrible either.

The foundations are there but haven't fully been fleshed out. You can whiff punish certain moves with a simple jab depending on the frame data. You can go low with a sweep kick when the enemy goes high kick and so on. The foundations of a fighting game are very much in Shenmue III. I just think it needs more fleshing out.

Bring in proper counter attacks, revamp the animations a little and maybe work on the response time for moves so its less "Dial A Move then watch the canned animation play out" and more in response to your button presses. Oh and get rid of that guard meter once you have it all fleshed out as I feel that was the only reason the guard meter was there in the first place. Other wise it really would be easy to just block strings in III and punish.

With SIII, I found the simplest tactic really was just to block their strings and then punish them in return at times. Once you have your endurance level high enough, you can start blocking their entire strings and punish them pretty effectively. I also think the game does a good job in employing footsies.

It's let down for me simply by the lack of throws, lack of proper counters and just the dial-a-move button timing. Although, if you set your four button moves to the Auto Trigger, it definetly does help I find to be more responsive.

What I would do for IV is keep the system as is but just expand on it.

I would change the 4 limb attacks and go back to punch, kick, dodge and throw from the original game.

To keep inputs simple, I would work more on the scroll book idea as I thought that was kind of interesting in SIII...maybe assign moves to certain face button combinations or something. Kind of like what they were playing around with in SII where you could switch moves. Or maybe start organizing moves by styles and have style stances?

Or maybe I would get rid of the dodge button and introduce a simple parry button ala Dead or Alive to make counter attacks a little easier on the player by making simple parry's done with one input.

I would find the mid ground between Yakuza's beat 'em up system which promotes simplicity with what Shenmue III has now as I feel that's kind of what they were going for but got stuck on. I find the "mash buttons" tutorial in SIII to be kind of downplaying that there is actually some decent stuff in this system they have now. If only they had explained it a little better and maybe explained the button layout and the fact that the face buttons on their own are actually more Tekken like in nature as its a quick jab, strong punch, quick kick and knee attack.

On the one level, it does feel that they maybe wanted this to be a bit more casual and simple but they kind of went half way by trying to do things the original game did (if you will)

I don't think the system we have now is terrible...I see promise there with it. I just think it needs more work being fleshed out. There were some good things there about that combat system and I see potential in it with just a bit of work.

But of course...iT's NoT tHe VF eNgInE aNd ThAt'S tErRiBle. (sorry for the sarcasm)

 

[Your Boy Leroy]

I really liked the stance switching from Ghost of Tsushima. For whatever reason, I thought it felt more natural (or just made more sense) than the style switching in Yakuza 0 and Kiwami. I think it would be interesting if the next Shenmue combat system implemented something like that. Not necessarily styles or stances, but something simply to provide more moves with the tap of a button. Whatever to do away with those nonsensical button combos from Shenmue III.

Despite how much easier it would be to just adapt a brawler-type system like other action games, I think completely doing away with inputs for individual moves would take away from Shenmue as a whole. It should keep its fighting game roots. Making that work mechanically while at the same time being accessible for wider audiences, cinematic, and simply fun to play is the real challenge. And honestly, given all the strides gaming has made in terms of storytelling and open-worlds (essentially making Shenmue feel a little too old-school in spots), developing said combat system could be a real area where Shenmue could still innovate.

 

[Dehone]

Combat definitely needs more time and money to polish. The combat feels weightless and MMOROGish in that the characters hardly react to the strikes. The animations when they grey knocked down need work as well. Their knockdowns always have the enemies stiffly fall back, the slowly relax on the ground. It looks weird. I'd like to be able to knock enemies into walls or other solid structures.


Would like to see accurate parrying and dodging like in the first two games. Throws need to make a comeback as that's a primary element of Ju Jitsu.

I miss when Ryo would check his surroundings and dust himself off after defeating all his enemies. Just a little detail I always liked

 

[Toua77]

This is probably the only instance ever where I wish Shenmue was anything like Yakuza. That's a 3D fighting system that works IMO( Obviously they've had longer to perfect it). If YSnet could add the freedom of the dial-a-combo system (But clean it up so it's less of a Charlie-Foxtrot) with something that "flows" like Yakuza, I think they could pull off the Full 3D combat. If it stays full 3D I'd rather they lean more into that beat em up style, but add enough depth with Ryo's huge movelist that Players can go as deep as they want (Especially with throws, throw counters and parries in the mix). They're never gonna make anything close to Shenmue 1&2's combat, without tearing the whole thing down which isn't likely for Shenmue 4 at least, so just copy what works with Yu's unique spin on it.

In an ideal world I wish Harada from Tekken could help his boy Yu out and send some of his guys over to help polish the system. Tekken IMO is probably the best representation of a 2.5 style "simulated" 3D game like Shenmue 1 & 2 where some clever camera work and responsive controls makes it feel like you're really in a 3D field, but the characters backs never face towards the camera(Excluding very specific circumstances).

 

[orient]

This is probably the only instance ever where I wish Shenmue was anything like Yakuza. That's a 3D fighting system that works IMO( Obviously they've had longer to perfect it). If YSnet could add the freedom of the dial-a-combo system (But clean it up so it's less of a Charlie-Foxtrot) with something that "flows" like Yakuza, I think they could pull off the Full 3D combat. If it stays full 3D I'd rather they lean more into that beat em up style, but add enough depth with Ryo's huge movelist that Players can go as deep as they want (Especially with throws, throw counters and parries in the mix). They're never gonna make anything close to Shenmue 1&2's combat, without tearing the whole thing down which isn't likely for Shenmue 4 at least, so just copy what works with Yu's unique spin on it.

In an ideal world I wish Harada from Tekken could help his boy Yu out and send some of his guys over to help polish the system. Tekken IMO is probably the best representation of a 2.5 style "simulated" 3D game like Shenmue 1 & 2 where some clever camera work and responsive controls makes it feel like you're really in a 3D field, but the characters backs never face towards the camera(Excluding very specific circumstances).

I agree with that. To me, the biggest benefit of proper 3D 'brawling' is that it's all about dealing with multiple opponents, in a way that 2D-based fighters aren't. Basically, they should be watching videos of Sifu and taking notes

 

[xatruio]

The only lag issues I had were when face button combos more than three buttons. The delay really did hit when doing the complex 4-combo face buttons. Then again, there's the R trigger which should always be assigned the complicated moves (and i suspect Yu did so realizing the budget was too short for polishing further)

Definitely not VF, though definitely also the internet incessantly pissing on everyone's feet. Great foundation like the rest of Shenmue 3, which should get proper focus on mo-cap not only for returning throws but smoother animations.

 

[Spaghetti]

Have a ton of thoughts about this subject all the time. One day I'll write down the laundry list, but for now... what if important or story-relevant moves had a short cinematic sequence attached when you used them?

Like you correctly pull off a dodge and whatever input for the Reverse Body Check and it switches to -

- in slow motion, then ramps back up into regular gameplay.

 

[xatruio]

yeah similar to the low-HP slow-mo effect already in there!

 

[code l name]

yeah similar to the low-HP slow-mo effect already in there!

It’s so bizarre this feature is almost hidden. It would have been so much more satisfactory if this was not dependent on having low-HP and rewarded good positioning and player competency.

 

[Spaghetti]

It’s so bizarre this feature is almost hidden. It would have been so much more satisfactory if this was not dependent on having low-HP and rewarded good positioning and player competency.

This is conjecture on my part, but they might have found it was too OP and subsequently nerfed it rather than removing the feature altogether.

 

[code l name]

This is conjecture on my part, but they might have found it was too OP and subsequently nerfed it rather than removing the feature altogether.

I speculated it might have been a late addition so they didn’t have time to play test is thoroughly. If it was too OP, maybe the player has to make 3x successful dodges consecutively before it’s activated?

 

[mrazizpizza]

Honestly I quite like that it’s a low health only feature. It’s a nice risk for reward aspect of the combat if you go into a fight with low health.

 

[celsowm]

Honest question:

How would it be the best way to adapt a move system like VF to an one vs many 3d game?