110 Industries & Yu Suzuki

I don't doubt yu' story telling ability the first 3 games to me anyway were beyond amazing in every aspect and possible way, but maybe he needs a more modern up to date with the times writer to spice things up abit for part 4. Like a shared partnership. Someone who can be or play the role of a guide of sorts of what people would like more of, what should be more included storywise and more importantly someone who can say there's a limit here. Yu always wants to do more and give more in his projects but sometimes he needs to be reminded and hear that this is enough let's not push our luck.
 
Jobi14119 said:
I don't doubt yu' story telling ability the first 3 games to me anyway were beyond amazing in every aspect and possible way, but maybe he needs a more modern up to date with the times writer to spice things up abit for part 4. Like a shared partnership. Someone who can be or play the role of a guide of sorts of what people would like more of, what should be more included storywise and more importantly someone who can say there's a limit here. Yu always wants to do more and give more in his projects but sometimes he needs to be reminded and hear that this is enough let's not push our luck.
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Hm...

While I do think it needs to be emphasised that players expect more out of the story and characters next time, I don't think Yu Suzuki actually sits down and writes his games in the same way someone like Hideo Kojima does. Yu is the source of the story and characters, but the games are ultimately written by others and subject to the same resource constraints as anything else.

Someone in a "Head of Narrative" position seconded to Yu might work out, though. Game Director is a very busy role with a lot of people reporting up to them, so having someone who can handle day-to-day story and character work with a fine-grain eye on the detail would be beneficial. Ultimately though, a truly good game is able to marry story and gameplay seamlessly as one drives the other in new and interesting ways.

A few examples:

Narrative: Ryo's defeat at the hands of Lan Di has given him a crisis of confidence, and to strengthen his resolve he must train harder than ever.

Gameplay: New training mini-games, enhanced and expanded RPG and stat system, overhauled combat.

---
Narrative: Ryo, Shenhua, and Ren are now a travelling trio with very different personalities and backgrounds.

Gameplay: An expanded dialogue and affinity system focussing on the Ryo/Shenhua/Ren interactions, building affinity with both, losing it if you side with one over the other, and opening up new mini-gameplay branches based on those decisions, etc.

(This is also a great way to display characterisation. Example: Ryo is asked about something he doesn't really want to talk about, the player is given the option to open up if they want, but also the option to clam up. If Shenhua is asking the question, he'd take a softer tone "I don't want to talk about it", but if it were Ren he might take a blunter "It's none of your business" approach. In a gameplay system they might both be affinity-losing answers, but it says a lot about Ryo's character when he shows different sides to himself depending on the opposing character in the interaction)

As for an "up to date writer", I... dunno. Depends what you really mean by that. This is of course subjective, but a lot of writing today is terrible and phoney. People who read every book on storytelling going but didn't understand them at all, so construct a bland paint-by-numbers pantomime, and don't really respect the tone or period they are trying to portray. I believe Shenmue III dub director Bill Black said a few modern words almost slipped into the English language translation of the game until he intervened to remove them and replace with something more... 80s. Sometimes modern isn't automatically better. Doesn't mean getting an old school writer either, just finding someone who takes a real passion in the work besides the superficial.

Shenmue II adhered to the classic form of a simple story told well, or simple story/complex characters. That's the benchmark, I think. Maybe with 15-20% more action sprinkled on top.
 
Spaghetti said:
Hm...

While I do think it needs to be emphasised that players expect more out of the story and characters next time, I don't think Yu Suzuki actually sits down and writes his games in the same way someone like Hideo Kojima does. Yu is the source of the story and characters, but the games are ultimately written by others and subject to the same resource constraints as anything else.

Someone in a "Head of Narrative" position seconded to Yu might work out, though. Game Director is a very busy role with a lot of people reporting up to them, so having someone who can handle day-to-day story and character work with a fine-grain eye on the detail would be beneficial. Ultimately though, a truly good game is able to marry story and gameplay seamlessly as one drives the other in new and interesting ways.

A few examples:

Narrative: Ryo's defeat at the hands of Lan Di has given him a crisis of confidence, and to strengthen his resolve he must train harder than ever.

Gameplay: New training mini-games, enhanced and expanded RPG and stat system, overhauled combat.

---
Narrative: Ryo, Shenhua, and Ren are now a travelling trio with very different personalities and backgrounds.

Gameplay: An expanded dialogue and affinity system focussing on the Ryo/Shenhua/Ren interactions, building affinity with both, losing it if you side with one over the other, and opening up new mini-gameplay branches based on those decisions, etc.

(This is also a great way to display characterisation. Example: Ryo is asked about something he doesn't really want to talk about, the player is given the option to open up if they want, but also the option to clam up. If Shenhua is asking the question, he'd take a softer tone "I don't want to talk about it", but if it were Ren he might take a blunter "It's none of your business" approach. In a gameplay system they might both be affinity-losing answers, but it says a lot about Ryo's character when he shows different sides to himself depending on the opposing character in the interaction)

As for an "up to date writer", I... dunno. Depends what you really mean by that. This is of course subjective, but a lot of writing today is terrible and phoney. People who read every book on storytelling going but didn't understand them at all, so construct a bland paint-by-numbers pantomime, and don't really respect the tone or period they are trying to portray. I believe Shenmue III dub director Bill Black said a few modern words almost slipped into the English language translation of the game until he intervened to remove them and replace with something more... 80s. Sometimes modern isn't automatically better. Doesn't mean getting an old school writer either, just finding someone who takes a real passion in the work besides the superficial.

Shenmue II adhered to the classic form of a simple story told well, or simple story/complex characters. That's the benchmark, I think. Maybe with 15-20% more action sprinkled on top.
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I agree absolutely with everything you've said here. I don't want yu to totally change or alter his formula when it comes to shenmue, because then it would become a game/property unrecognisable to the hardcore fanbase in both feel and look. However we've seen how someone in the position of handling narrative can differ things in a positive way especially when you look at how the anime was put together by crunchy roll and jason. I should of phrased it better instead of "up to date" i believe finding the balance is necessary in tying the old formula of yu's with an independent perspective it could work...but again would yu want that or even be open to that? I don't think he would be opposed to it if it was an individual with a good track record and high regarded reputation amongst their peers and superiors. I'd love to see the new engines, mechanics, open world, mini games, combat system and a even better stamina system the thoughts of what they could achieve with a higher budget and with good backing is enough to make the mouth water haha i hope that 110 is doing something in secret involving yu & a potential shenmue IV there is alot of opportunities and chances there. 🙏
 
Jobi14119 said:
I agree absolutely with everything you've said here. I don't want yu to totally change or alter his formula when it comes to shenmue, because then it would become a game/property unrecognisable to the hardcore fanbase in both feel and look. However we've seen how someone in the position of handling narrative can differ things in a positive way especially when you look at how the anime was put together by crunchy roll and jason. I should of phrased it better instead of "up to date" i believe finding the balance is necessary in tying the old formula of yu's with an independent perspective it could work...but again would yu want that or even be open to that? I don't think he would be opposed to it if it was an individual with a good track record and high regarded reputation amongst their peers and superiors. I'd love to see the new engines, mechanics, open world, mini games, combat system and a even better stamina system the thoughts of what they could achieve with a higher budget and with good backing is enough to make the mouth water haha i hope that 110 is doing something in secret involving yu & a potential shenmue IV there is alot of opportunities and chances there. 🙏
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I thought that Yu used some help from script curators for Shenmue before.
 
I’ve said it before but the first two had menial fetch quests and goals but I never felt like the plot wasn’t evolving and progressing. With the third game I felt like the narrative wasn’t progressing. I don’t want Yu to abandon any of what makes Shenmue Shenmue. But there seems like an awful lot of plot to cover based on those postmortem cards.
 
One of the hardest things for fans that hold the 1st Shenmue in such high regard is that, narratively, the sequels can't be the same as what came before, this is a chapter-based story with different tones and overall feeling.

Narratively, S2+S3 cannot be as immersive because Ryo has no idea who the people are in these places and in S3 (for Niaowu at least) he has Shenhua to babysit, so a large part of the action from S2 has to be toned down because of the company he is with. It's not until he reunites with Ren that things speed up in S3, but along the journey of discovery and growth, the overall series is not one speed - it is not all 100 man fights and cage goons - there will be slower moments etc.

I think it's hard for fans of 1-shot game series' to accept, but it is like a book publishing its chapters one by one at ridiculous intervals, but if you give it a second, it makes sense that these chapters play out differently as we are not dealing with a normal game series here. As an example, as much as I love Yakuza, Shenmue looks at the bigger picture, certain tones in certain games, not just every possible emotion in one contained story.

We all know the expression "life is about the journey, not the destination", but why does this go out the window with video games? Because we've been conditioned this way with media - especially with subscription-based "I don't have time for this", "where is my beginning, middle and end" crowd. Without an immediate end, without an easily understandable, comprehensible, digestible end, it just has to be terrible - right?

Shenmue is such a rare breed, man.
 
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shadowreaper said:
I’ve said it before but the first two had menial fetch quests and goals but I never felt like the plot wasn’t evolving and progressing. With the third game I felt like the narrative wasn’t progressing. I don’t want Yu to abandon any of what makes Shenmue Shenmue. But there seems like an awful lot of plot to cover based on those postmortem cards.
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No there isn't; if we're supposed to get 5 games at this point (Suzuki mentioned 6 would be ideal) and we are at/finished card 6 of 11, we are basically smack dab in the middle or slightly past middle, if the cards are adhered to.

We're at the perfect spot, IMO, of the total plot. As per the next few cards, if adhered to, I think the plot will ramp up significantly.
 
I think Truck's right. Moreover, I've recently been thinking about the pacing of those 11 cards: I wonder if the later cards may progress more rapidly, or that perhaps there's less story to be "revealed" after a certain point.

By that, I mean that what if IV reveals the structure of the Chi You, perhaps Tentei, what the mirrors are for (if there's more besides what we know), etc. Though there will obviously be plot development and some exploration, I'd presume the latter half of the story will be less about running through a city asking thirsty women if they've "seen any Chi You leaders lately." In these more rural locales, maybe there will be a focus on training, hunting down the leaders, etc.

I still think Suzuki could use someone to help him (not the other way around) keep the story focused, but it may be less of an issue as it was in the earlier chapters. Just a thesis, though...
 
It would be awesome if they could continue to follow the S1>S2 tone and progression loop. If you consider S3 a return to the beginning of that 2-game tonal loop, S4 would take on the tone of S2, develop the relationship of the group (in a hong kong-like section) before forcing the narrative into a narrow focus (of a contained kowloon-like map) in both design and action, funneling all interaction and giving us the progression we all want.
 
If they are actually involved in the development of a real Shenmue 4,
then i still think this whole teasing campaign could be done a lot better.
Like, why even start this whole thing in march, april, may whatever
and then give us literally nothing until ... october and probably even longer
until Wanted Dead is out.
Even the hype level of hardcore fans cant be maintained for that long if you only give us a couple of winky faces.
The hype level for everyone else who only knew about it
because some gaming sites reported about the original tease is long gone now.
So you are basically taking the wind out of your own sails for no reason.
110 Industries had the opportunity to do something with that first hype wave,
yet here we are, as wise as before.

Thats what i dont understand about companies, PR people, whatever on Twitter.
Like you have every possible way to communicate with the people you want to reach,
you can post pictures, text, you can make jokes, riddles ... anything.
You can tell us any news or update with the most simple tweet.

If you cant really say anything about a specific topic for now or its too early or whatever,
then how about you simply dont post anything and then start a planned nice full campaign later
instead of some random guesswork that goes on for months and months.

Now we are sitting here, waiting for event after event and our patience
and hope level gets lower and lower because of our expectation level
which only got to this high point because of the tweet six months ago.
This is really not optimal.
 
Tosh said:
If they are actually involved in the development of a real Shenmue 4,
then i still think this whole teasing campaign could be done a lot better.
Like, why even start this whole thing in march, april, may whatever
and then give us literally nothing until ... october and probably even longer
until Wanted Dead is out.
Even the hype level of hardcore fans cant be maintained for that long if you only give us a couple of winky faces.
The hype level for everyone else who only knew about it
because some gaming sites reported about the original tease is long gone now.
So you are basically taking the wind out of your own sails for no reason.
110 Industries had the opportunity to do something with that first hype wave,
yet here we are, as wise as before.

Thats what i dont understand about companies, PR people, whatever on Twitter.
Like you have every possible way to communicate with the people you want to reach,
you can post pictures, text, you can make jokes, riddles ... anything.
You can tell us any news or update with the most simple tweet.

If you cant really say anything about a specific topic for now or its too early or whatever,
then how about you simply dont post anything and then start a planned nice full campaign later
instead of some random guesswork that goes on for months and months.

Now we are sitting here, waiting for event after event and our patience
and hope level gets lower and lower because of our expectation level
which only got to this high point because of the tweet six months ago.
This is really not optimal.
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I think 110 Industries were super excited to announce they were working with YS Net and then the plug was pulled so as not to distract from Air Twister (and probably because Yu/Cedric don’t want to release anything until they are 100% ready).

There are plenty of trolls (so called ‘fans’) out there who will want to rip apart any announcement so I would hope YS Net appreciate that the reveal needs to be 100% and to prove decisively that Shenmue 4 means business this time. The third game had its faults but the team would have learnt a lot and I would hope they can build on the foundations set in place to show real improvements in key areas.

I believe that 110 Industries are very excited to be working on the project, that they can’t wait to announce officially, and they are keen not to allow the hardcore fans lose hope until the official reveal comes.

I could be wrong, but I genuinely feel this is a rational explanation for what has happened. It’s a bit of a mess the way it’s been done but, really, it was only the ‘couple of weeks’ statement that really let us down. Clearly, they had to hold back on whatever that announcement was going to be.

Timescales may have changed but 110 Industries have not done anything to officially distance themselves from a Shenmue 4 project (quite the opposite, in fact).
 
Maybe yu needs to look for some help from oooooo I don't know... maybe some men in black suits 😉😎
 
Spaghetti said:
I'm sure they wouldn't say no if that was an option. YsNet worked with several partner studios in shipping Shenmue III.
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I can imagine plenty of benefits from some level of collaboration (sharing of ideas/tech) between companies even it’s not a full on co-development). After all, Ryan Payton provided input for the development of Shenmue 3 (and hopefully will again for future projects).

Hopefully, Yu Suzuki is open to advice and expertise on streamlining the development process so as to get the most from whatever budget may be assigned.

Without discarding the values of the Shenmue franchise, this needs to be a slightly more mainstream game in order to attract the additional sales required for the series to be completed.
 
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